Jason Waechter – The “Motorcycle Lawyer” on Learning and Locking a $27M Verdict

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The most dangerous place you can be as a trial lawyer is to think you've got it figured out. I'm still

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Trying to get better. I still have the passion for it. I believe in it.

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Everyone can learn to do what I do.

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And yet there's a group here that continues to get extraordinary verdicts, trial lawyers, universities revolutionizing educating lawyers to be better trial lawyers. It's been invaluable to me.

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Trial Lawyers University where the titans come to train produced and powered by law pods.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:31

Well we got my old and good friend Jason Wecter with us here today, all the way from Southfield, Michigan. Jason Knight go all the way back to high school at Brother Rice in Michigan and Jason's still there today freezing his ass off. Every time I go back there, I look around and I see my friends. I'm like, who's crazy enough to live in the shitty, frizzy weather and rain and clouds and overcast most of the year. But then I see my friend Jason and he's still smiling even in spite of the cold weather. So Jason, how are you able to manage such an upbeat spirit in the depths of a Michigan winter?

Jason Waechter (: 01:01

Lots of trips. I travel an awful lot. It's 27 degrees here today, so you're right on.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:07

I know you do travel a lot. Where'd you just come back from?

Jason Waechter (: 01:10

We were in Australia and I'm going to Thailand in two months, so I believe in you got to put it on the calendar and take the trips now while you can walk up the mountain and have that good health. Otherwise you'll never get around to it.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:22

Right. That is a good plan because healthwise too, you're like Mr. Juujitsu, aren't you? I mean every time you people that do juujitsu, you and my friend Kyle Sherman and a couple other friends at Jiujitsu are crazy about it. So what is it about jujitsu that just gets you so fired up?

Jason Waechter (: 01:38

It's hard. It's physical. It's great physical exercise and it's like a chess game. You're always thinking one step ahead and when you can beat up. I'm 57. If he can beat up a 25-year-old stud who's still in great shape because he got good technique, that's a good day.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:57

See, it's kind of like trial. Very strategic. It's three dimensional chess and sometimes technique does matter. You've got to practice your technique, got to practice you. Jujitsu.

Jason Waechter (: 02:08

What a great segue. And before we move on, there's been many a conversation I start at TLU events with, I went to high school at Dan Ambrose and usually it gets a lot of follow-up questions,

Dan Ambrose (: 02:21

See that they're like was he's cool then back then as he is today, and did he have a TLU T-shirt on back then? That's really because people that, anyways, yes, those were the days back there at Brother Rice. I can't say I have fond memories of high school. I got picked on a lot, but that's okay. I used to be kind of overweight and these things happen and that's what I remember. You learn to get a thick skin from a little bit of abuse in high school, especially in all boys high school like that one. But that's all right. But speaking of high school, we got through high school and then we went to college at some small college, I think in Michigan, but then eventually got to law school. So tell us about that impetus or where you first got the desire to become a lawyer.

Jason Waechter (: 03:03

I think I was brainwashed when I was a child. My father went to law school, but he never practiced law and he always would say a law school education's the absolute best education you can have no matter what you end up doing. If you go work for General Motors, they're going to put you above everybody else and the law is everywhere. So you always be able to use that law school education no matter what you do. I was doing an internship at Albion College in New York and I learned in that internship something great, I don't want to do this, which was advertising. So I signed up for Stanley Kaplan in New York and took the LSAT at New York University and ended up being accepted at Detroit School of Law, U of d.

Dan Ambrose (: 03:47

U of D. Yeah, man, that's Detroit college law. But you went to the other one, the other private school that was low rated like DCL. That's okay though buddy, because it's only law school, it doesn't really matter. It wasn't fancy like Michigan or Wayne State? No, it was the bottom tier law schools. Okay, Jason, nobody ever said you were already intellectual, so it's okay, neither I It's all right. It's cool. So anyways, you go to law school, did you participate anything in law school like mock trial, moot court trial, add, anything like that that kind of gave you maybe a little bit of a headstart into being a trial lawyer?

Jason Waechter (: 04:16

Yeah, that's what I thought being a lawyer was, it was going to court. So I took trial advocacy and there was a program that was in the local prosecutor's office, the Wayne County Prosecutor's office, and I was an intern there for a summer. So one great thing about that internship is we did our work in the morning and then they let us go watch trials and they would say, go to this courtroom. There's a great lawyer in there. So I learned a lot about trying cases by watching trials and you become a lawyer, you don't have time to go sit in a courtroom for four hours to watch somebody do an opening statement or a closing argument. So that was a really great experience.

Dan Ambrose (: 04:55

Well, when you're a young lawyer, you generally do have time, especially for you're, you don't have that much work, but I'm just saying, I remember those days of being a young lawyer, go and watch a lot of trials, but so you go to law school and you do a little trial ad and you get out of there and tell us where's that first job? Young Jason lands out of law school.

Jason Waechter (: 05:14

I was clerking for a collection firm that did a lot of work for banks. So they have like 3000 files that you have to do volume and collection work, but it's also litigation. So they have to sue somebody. Oftentimes if they're defending the case, it ends up in a small little trial. So I got a lot of litigation experience going to that firm even though the cases were small and you could try 'em, we'd like to do the bench trials, you could try 'em in a couple in morning or an afternoon. But the most significant thing that happened to me was 30 days before I became a lawyer, 30 days later, the lead litigator quit and they handed me a file and said, you're going to try this federal bankruptcy case where you have to prove fraud in 30 days. So I tried a case in federal bankruptcy court, 60 days in from being a lawyer, and I'll remember it to this day because it was opening day for the Tigers and all my friends went to the tiger game and I tried this case and lost very hard to prove fraud. You have to prove intent and driving home or driving back to the office, I was just mortified.

Dan Ambrose (: 06:25

You should have been, you're loser, but you recovered, you didn't let it. And

Jason Waechter (: 06:29

Then they tell me, you were supposed to lose this. This was a dead loser. We knew you were going to lose. The client got their day in court, mission accomplished and move on. But of course I didn't realize I thought I was going to win this case.

Dan Ambrose (: 06:43

So Jason and you and I hadn't seen each other for a long time after high school and college and we kind of reconnected or ran into each other at an AJ conference. I can't remember. I just remember seeing you there. We had some mutual friends like George Chulo and Claude Wiley out of San Francisco, and it was very rare to see a Michigan lawyer at the a JI mean there's maybe a few. I see Ben Johnson there. I see Brian McKean there, Jules Osman. But there's very few and I was always kind of surprised that more lawyers in Michigan didn't go to these national programs. But what kind of inspired you to start attending a J and other educational programs like that?

Jason Waechter (: 07:25

Well, after that first job, I was only there eight months. I knew that I wanted to do some personal injury work and I knew I would go on my own eventually. Well, they wanted me to do the work. They assigned me the work that they had and I was bringing in a PPI, wait,

Dan Ambrose (: 07:40

Wait a minute. You were working for them drawing a paycheck and they wanted tell you what to do. The nerve, the nerve, that law firm. No wonder you had to get out of there. My god,

Jason Waechter (: 07:50

Audacity. I was bringing in a few auto cases and they really, I could tell they didn't want to have time for that. And I get it, I wasn't married, I didn't have a lot of responsibilities or bills, so I went on my own not knowing any better, hung up my own shingle and it was just me.

Dan Ambrose (: 08:06

And that was it. Just to be clear, that was after eight months of being a lawyer doing litigation in bankruptcy, you thought you'd open your own firm and start segue to personal injury, do whatever you had to do to get some cash.

Jason Waechter (: 08:19

So yeah, back then I was taking appointments, criminal appointments, misdemeanors, and the joke was if somebody said, what kind of lawyer are you? I'd say, well, what kind of lawyer do you need? And then here are three business cards. Call me with personal injury cases. That's what I do. And then I started to do auto accidents. Those are the most common obviously. And after a few years, to get back to your question, I always realized that to be a champion and to be good at something, you have to keep learning and go find the knowledge, find mentors, go to seminars. And I saw those really good lawyers that you just mentioned. Were going to a J conferences as a young lawyer, that's expensive. You got to buy a plane ticket, you got to pay for the hotel. The conference is expensive. But I chose to commit to it because I knew that this was, at the time, this was the organization where plaintiff attorneys shared or taught and I would build relationships and I would get better.

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And I also, they always had it at a different city or venue every year. So I would see other cities, Puerto Rico, I don't think I probably ever would've got to Vancouver. That's another one. So I committed and I went to the national seminar every year for 15 years as a commitment to learning. And I still think that concept's important and I try to use it also with my associates and my lawyers and my office to pay for them to go to these types of seminars because I think that learning part is really, really important. So that's where I was at an AJ conference that I met you and you're saying, Hey, I got this thing called Trojan Horse, you got to come check it out. You got to do change. New

Dan Ambrose (: 10:01

Workshop life. Best thing ever. Yes, I can imagine my enthusiasm that I still, I just use, just challenge Trial Lawyers University. Now that was right back, that was in 2016. I remember you came to, I think it was Redondo Beach. Yeah, it was because I remember it was in the, I still remember the hotel, I still remember the whole thing perfectly. That was a big conference because some great lawyers there, like Spencer Lucas, he's a partner at Panche and Rob Puty, he's a great lawyer. He was there. So something like that, I was like, wow. The guy who had an eight figure verdicts was coming to my little workshop. I was always, I felt pretty honored to stuff. I don't know how, it's weird to say that, but I still remember the various different people at that one because that was, I dunno what was special about that, but you were there too. And then some of my other friends from Detroit, like Vince Kella

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Has been to many of the programs and stuff. And so you came and you did Trojan Horse in 2016. That was kind of a precursor to the TLU skills bootcamps that we run today. Actually we're running one next week with David De Robertas unemployment law, really stoked about it. 10 employment lawyers bringing 10 cases and working with a guy who's just, in my opinion, not just the best employment lawyer in the country, but he's one of the very top lawyers in the country because the guy's got six verdicts in a row that have either eight or nine digits in them unemployment cases. That's just insane. For what? Humiliation, tension, stress, not lost legs, not paralysis, not the things that we normally consider big verdicts for. So it was a precursor to all of that, but it was obviously very different than what we teach today. But what were your takeaways? I know it was a long time ago, eight years ago, but what were your takeaways from that first Trojan Horse program?

Jason Waechter (: 11:42

Well, to your point, a workshop, you can go to a seminar and sit there and take notes, but it's much different standing up on your two feet and actually doing, and I think there's a bunch of great phrases that say you learn more by doing than anything. And then I also think you learn from your losses if you really hate to lose and you lose, there's a big learning moments usually with losses. But that seminar, I remember really good lawyers just really sharing and not holding back and watching that and how you've done TLU and all the lawyers that present at TLU. That's kind of my mindset when I talk is you just got to give, give, give and whatever you want. Ultimately, I believe in karma. We'll come back around if that's what you're into.

Dan Ambrose (: 12:30

Yes. But that Trojan Horse program was my real first initiative on trying to teach presentation skills, not just the theory of being a trial lawyer, but how to get up and more effectively tell the story. And I didn't really understand. I didn't had a chance to study all the great lawyers I got to do during the pandemic to really recognize what it was that secret sauce, whatever you want to call it. What's that it? And during the pandemic though, with the chance to study the great ones, what I realized that it's all about the connection with the jury and the Trojan horse was the start of that. But I didn't really, like I said, it was very rudimentary compared to what we do today because

Jason Waechter (: 13:08

Oh, Dan, I remember it was the first time anyone videotaped me and I saw myself actually presenting and doing an opening statement or whatever and I learned, I talked too fast, slow down number one.

Dan Ambrose (: 13:21

We just had to have that conversation yesterday. You're doing better. See that constant coach, don't you worry, buddy. I know it's a podcast, but their learning never stops here at TLU.

Jason Waechter (: 13:30

That's true. And I had you call 'em Chucky hands, I call 'em alligator arms that I would keep my hands really close. It looked artificial, looked weird, and I need to tell the story and use those hands and make sure they all go together. So having someone videotape me and force me to look at it and look at it, honestly, that was new and that was the first time that I've ever done that because I was forced to do it and I had to do it and yeah, it sucked, but I'm better now because of it.

Dan Ambrose (: 14:00

Yeah, well it's like people always feel like when people sometimes critique talk about the skills bootcamp and stuff like, oh, this feels very unnatural and very uncomfortable. I'm like, yeah, of course it does. It's the first time you've done something just like it's unnatural for a baby to stand on his two feet instead of crawling. But we do it because learning new stuff and learning a new skill, sometimes it's not going to be the most comfortable experience. And the people that can't handle a little discomfort, well, they tend to sit on their asses, their whole careers and refer their cases to people to go try them if they get that far. Besides the Trojan Horse program, we were at Huntington Beach last year and we got Huntington Beach coming up this year, June 4th through seventh. If you just want to do the bigger program. But if you want to do the Dark Arts Bootcamp, then you have to come in on May 31st through June 3rd. But what did you like best about your Heint Beach experience in 2024?

Jason Waechter (: 14:50

That's a great hotel. It's got its own location right on the beach you look out to, we take over the whole hotel. I think you had food trucks there. There's always something great going on. Bands, karaoke, all these extra party fun things that help with the networking. But the truth is I'm there for the great lawyers that are talking and I like to go to Why do you go to so many of these? Well, my caseload changes every year. So depending on the cases I'm working on, I'll go to different things and the different speakers at that different time. Depending on the case I'm working means something different. So I'm always getting something new and I can go to the same TLU conference over and over again.

Dan Ambrose (: 15:31

Well, because it's never the same. TLU conference this year in Huntington Beach would be a lot different variety of presentations and skills and master classes. So it's always changing and I'm just trying to work on making a little bit better. You also did my Skills bootcamp about a year and a half ago here in Vegas. So what were your big takeaways from that one?

Jason Waechter (: 15:53

Well, again, COVID just happened and I hadn't tried a case in two years because of Covid and I was about to try this big case, so I wanted to get the ring rust off of me stand up and practice some of the things that I was going to be doing at trial. And even though I might not be able to do the opening statement, I think you actually allowed, hey, you're going to do the opening statement for the group, even though that's not what it's about. It's about presentation skills, but just standing up and going through the lessons or whatever you had us doing would be helpful and lend itself to trying the big case that I had lined up. And then I think you've forced me get your opening statement ready, Jason, I'm going to give you an audience and we're going to film you and it's just something you made me do. And again, it sucked and I had to prepare, but my opening statement, I guarantee it was better than if not doing it. So those were a couple takeaways.

Dan Ambrose (: 16:46

Yeah, it's all about getting the reps and it's like you, especially most people have never really been taught or coached on how to present. I mean how to make appropriate eye contact with 12 people, how to train ourself to speak more slowly, to pause intentionally and more frequently to move our hands effectively to utilize them as vehicles for connection with the jury controlling our emotional state. You know what I mean? Some people get nervous and they say good morning and their face looks all serious and it's nothing. Nobody says good morning like that. People say good morning and they have a warm face. And it's so critical to be just intentional with everything we do in front of a jury because trials of performance and if you don't, lawyers that don't get that, it's say, oh, I'm just going to be myself up there. It's like good luck buddy. Because yourself is usually a nervous, distracted mess for most human beings standing up in front of an audience under pressure. And that's why

Jason Waechter (: 17:40

It's just, I think like you said, I could tell a joke or a story in a group at a party, but as soon as you stand up and you're in that atmosphere, it's just different. And people tense up and their hands get to be the alligator arms and they talk real fast just because it's the nature of public speaking. So yeah, right on.

Dan Ambrose (: 17:59

What's the nature of pressure? That's what happens. Pressure speeds people up and that's why it's so important to practice slowing down, practice speaking 10% slower when you're training. So that case, when the pressure comes, you're speaking at a pace that your audience can comprehend and process what you're saying. I mean that's critical. And since you've done the program, we've evolved it a bit. So now we do. Now it's actually four days, actually the D Robertas one's four and a half days because the first half day I'm doing witness prep and direct examination. I've read quite a few transcripts. I'm just amazed at how much help people really need and just prepping their witnesses. If your witness is great during deposition, you're lucky to get a good settlement offer. If you're plaintiff is terrible, you're lucky, you're likely to get shit. And so that's where it all starts with preparation.

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But now that we do four days, there's ample time for people to actually work their cases, work their openings, work their crosses while still working on learning the fundamentals of presentation. So pretty stoked about that aspect of it too because that way people are actually bringing cases, applying these skills to cases. Like in March we're doing a trucking bootcamp with Joe Free, and that's March 5th through eighth where people are going to bring their trucking cases and it's limited to just 10 people. So we have two groups of five. So you get lots of reps, lots of videotaping, lots of coaching. And then in April 2nd through fifth that Oliver is doing a bootcamp here with us on his deposition of trial philosophy. Then in May, love Hill's doing one of elder abuse. So it's like I'm so psyched to have all these great lawyers coming out here.

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And I got some other ones lined up with some trial consultants like Eric Oliver and Harry Plotkin and just helping people put their cases together and get the reps on their feet. So pretty stoked about 2025 and what we got going on because this, I'm not doing a fall conference, we're not doing Vegas or Caesars Palace because this year Dan Ambrose is going to the courtroom on a regular basis. And just last night I spent a couple hours reading Brian Panes cross-examination in this big medical malpractice case he's got going on because him and I do a Zoom every day for about 15 minutes. So he kind of gives me the download on what he's doing to prepare, but I gave him my cross-examination of the defense medical expert, what we teach to learn the fundamentals of cross. And I'm reading his cross yesterday and the whole pages nine through 13, I should send it to you, it's doctor you're board certified to become board certified requires advanced education. This education, it takes place after medical school. But while you were in medical school, you did take classes and one of those classes that you took was on how to conduct a proper medical evaluation.

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And so verbatim, I'm like, this is great. And reading Brian Panish, if you read his cross exam, you got to read it. I'm going to send you his deposition.

Jason Waechter (: 20:47

I've seen a lot of his stuff.

Dan Ambrose (: 20:49

No, but he does not let the guy says something and he just bang, bang, bang. You know what I mean? Because it just bangs him. I mean, just a reading of it. So much to be learned obviously as so many people say in Scha Oliver's book says depositions are trial and you've got to get good at depositions. Because I was reading my nephew Harrison's one of his first depositions, I was in Mexico with him. He's like, I'm finally on the record. And so I'm reading this and I'm like, we got a lot of work to do, son. Let's talk about how you phrased that question,

Jason Waechter (: 21:22

Dan. I watched that you did an interview or webinar with Brian Panish about cross-examination and he had an expert witness on the stand for three hours and you guys went through it. It's a great one and right, he does not let go of it. He will stay on that issue and on that issue and on that issue, ad nauseum almost,

Dan Ambrose (: 21:43

No, the first 80 pages of this deposition were just like him jabbing this guy because he said he was licensed in New York, but he hasn't been licensed there in 30 years. And he's like, that's misrepresentation. Is it proper for a board certified medical doctor to misrepresented the public and let's see how long you misrepresenting for 30 years and there's objection, da da da. And then the way he dressed down the defense lawyer, he's like, look, I told you there is no relevance objection when it comes to expert witnesses, so please learn what you're doing. And he moves on. He just like fish slaps the guy. I mean it was great because a guy was like, he's like, I've told you this before because the guy is so authoritative. But anyways, lot to learn. Mr. Wecter on all this stuff and all these, I'm always

Jason Waechter (: 22:29

Learning.

Dan Ambrose (: 22:30

That's the fun part, buddy. Doesn't get boring. Doesn't get boring. Just being a lawyer thing. It does not get boring. So you've been a lawyer now for as longer than I have because it took me a while to get through moral character back there in 94. What a surprise. So you got a little headstart mean. Plus I went to night school. So now you've been at this probably what, a little over 30 years now. So what would you say out of those 30 years, what's that one case that one regret that's maybe sticks in your car or things you maybe wish you would've done differently now that you have the benefit of hindsight?

Jason Waechter (: 23:00

I kind of said it a little bit, alluded it to it, we learn from your losses. So I've had a lot of success. I've done well at trial, but the one that keeps me up at night still is the big case. The big trial that I lost. I had $72,000 in it and a motorcyclist died. And looking back on it, I have a friend that I went to college with that became the youngest judge in Michigan. And talking to him, he says, you know what? The jury really gets it right 97% of the time. So that gives me some solace that this case was a loser. There was a hill, the motorcyclist was speeding and all those things, but I thought I could win this case. I tried to do it myself. Pretty much I wanted to prove to the world and my ego got in the way that I wanted to win and show everybody that Jason Wecter could do it without pretty much any help.

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Sure I have some support staff, but I did the whole trial myself and it was really the wrong decision. I learned now that you need a team, you can't handle big cases going against huge firms and billion dollar insurance companies. I got outspent, they did animations and reenactments and spent $250,000 on all these things. I thought my $72,000 was a lot. This is going back 15 years, but I'm still thinking about it. Dan and I lost that case, but I learned from it and without it, I wouldn't be where I am today and maybe I wouldn't have won the big case that we're here to talk about. A little bit about.

Dan Ambrose (: 24:37

Yep, I remember that case too. I helped you a little bit on it. You did. Unfortunately I was consulting on a contingency back then and that didn't work out too well for me. For

Jason Waechter (: 24:44

Me.

Dan Ambrose (: 24:45

Oh buddy, you got to help your buddy out, man. I'm trying to make a living over here. Squeeze. I'm trying to squeeze some, rub some nickels together. But we're w progress though. They're making progress. So talking about, oh well I would ask you what your proudest moment is, but I know what it is. It's the verdict you got. And so this verdict you got because it took you what, 30 years plus work of training and growing to get to your eight figure verdict. So what was this trial

Jason Waechter (: 25:10

About? To your point, I have a friend that said you're an overnight success and we can go and see all the things we've done to lead up to this. I've had a 2 million verdict. I've had a lot of six figure verdicts. I'm not a newbie before this, but this is the biggest verdict and it was all non-economic damages. So people are telling me this really is an amazing thing in Michigan. So what this case was about essentially was a woman is driving her car down the road in a city near Grand Rapids out in a rural area two lane road. She is using her cell phone to check her glucose level, those little white disks on the back of your tricep. You see these diabetics have using an app on her phone to check this. She goes left of center and hits the motorcyclist, a lot of broken bones, a lot of surgeries, and he ultimately lost his leg above the knee. So he used an amputee because of this.

Dan Ambrose (: 26:07

And so your motorcycle amputee, now this case comes to you. So when this case comes to you obviously recognize the size of it when this big obviously the size. So what do you do as far as to set it up? Because as far as figuring out this is a big case there any a big case even within into images without the insurance, right? So tell us about your process.

Jason Waechter (: 26:30

Okay, so funny thing happened with this case, the insurance company and adjuster for the insurance company for the car. The driver called me and said, Hey, there's a 250,000 policy. I'll send you a release and a check. I said, whoa, whoa, hold on. I need to know more this that. Oh, it's her car. And yeah, I ran the registration, I got the police report. Nothing on the police report shows anything but an individual. The registration is hers and it looks like there's a two 50 policy, but my gut's telling trust your gut. After doing this a long time, my gut's telling me something and it's a policy in my office, huge damages like this. Even if that's what they say, I'm filing suit because only when you file suit you have subpoena power and they have to answer under oath. So I said, no, I'm going to file. I need to file suit on this. Well guess what? It turns out she was working as a social worker for Catholic Charities of West Michigan. She was on the job when this happened, going between clients and there ended up being $30 million worth of insurance.

Dan Ambrose (: 27:37

That's more than 250. Jason. Now we got a big case,

Jason Waechter (: 27:41

But they tried to hoodwink me to settle this case for $250,000 suggesting that's all there was. I mean is that shady or what?

Dan Ambrose (: 27:49

I am surprised that an insurance company would behave like that in Michigan of all places. I'm shocked, shocked. The conscience tell you, hunting beach is June 4th through seventh, 2025. We've bought the entire passe hotel for the event. So that means everybody at the hotel for those five days is going to be with the trial lawyers. It's going to be great learning. We have four lecture tracks and eight workshop tracks and the workshops and small group training where you can work on your skills of cross examination, depositions, opening statement, jury selection. But on top of the great learning, we got great networking because every morning we do a full breakfast for everybody outside in the ocean lawn. Every afternoon a full lunch and every evening we have theme parties with live music, lots of food and open bars where there's never a wait for a cocktail. And on top of it, all the four days before TLU Hunting Beach, we're going to be doing a dark arts program with Dave Clark. So TLU Beach, you don't want to miss it. It's going to be fantastic. So you figure out you got this big insurance policy now. So tell me about the process of getting ready for this monster case for you.

Jason Waechter (: 29:05

Well, they wanted to dispute everything. Huge law firm in Grand Rapids and they wanted to just make a mountain on every moul. The lady came left of center and they want to say my guy's comparatively at fault. He didn't have a motorcycle endorsement. He tested positive for THC marijuana, he was obese, 300 pounds. And they just wanted to use all these things to try to make us think our case was less valuable and to make us think that he was somehow at fault riding in the wrong part of the lane. I mean she came over it and they were just doing everything to make you doubt your case and the value of it. And just at every step we're like, no way. I'll have none of it. So I heard the best experts. I didn't take anything to chance even though someone could look at this and say, I don't need an expert. She went left of center, I'll just use the police officer. No, I worked it up learning from that loss. I ended up spending $210,000 trying this ask all the way through trial,

Dan Ambrose (: 30:06

Just three x your investment by time you put the money especially you put that kind of money up. A million makes you focus, doesn't it?

Jason Waechter (: 30:11

Yeah, yeah.

Dan Ambrose (: 30:12

Really makes you work. Especially it's not like HMR servicing money that you borrowed on a nonrecourse. It's hard currency you had to earn and it makes you a little more connected to it because every time a doc comes

Jason Waechter (: 30:24

In and they even said, here, we want to resolve this, we want to pay you. Don't file suit, let's do an early facilitation. We're serious. I didn't believe that I filed suit. Then they go to facilitation, they not even at a million dollars and then they just played games and then they go to a settlement conference and finally say, here's a $3 million package. Look how much money you'll make Jason. They literally said that. And then we're going to take a million, put it in the client's pocket and they take another million and do a structure and look at how great his life is going to be. No goodbye. You have a duty to tell your client Thank you, I know my duties. And then it wasn't until the courtroom steps, we came up for trial the first time and they offered $5 million and I didn't think I heard these stories.

(: 31:11

The lawyers turned it down $5 million. I never thought I would turn that down, but I did. And one reason was we could talk about big data is going to your seminar. I learned about big data and I ran big data on this case. So there is an answer to your question. I did big data on this case that I've never done before, learned about it at TLU and that doing big data told me the true value of this case, what 200 potential jurors thought the value of this case was whether they believed having no motorcycle license had anything to do with this, whether smoking pot had anything to do with it afterwards if that lowered the verdict and all those things we're able to test. So big data was a very big thing I did to work this case up that I've never done before.

Dan Ambrose (: 31:57

What else did you take away from TLU that you applied to this trial that you think helped you get to your result? Other than the big data studies?

Jason Waechter (: 32:05

One of my favorite moments in this trial was my cross-examination of their expert witness. He was a vocational expert and he was also a psychologist so he could talk about the psychology of losing a leg and he was an amputee and above the knee amputee. So can you imagine this is what the defense attorneys are thinking. We got an expert and he doesn't have a leg either and he'll tell the jury, having a leg is not a big deal. I mean this is what they've got to be thinking. So I think Roger, dod and then listening to a couple cross-examination videos or presentations, those the 10 commandments of cross-examination, they're bullshit. Somebody wrote a paper and that's what people have been pointing to for years and years. And Roger Dodds saying, look, they're nice guidelines, but after you do this a while, you can ask the question that you don't know the answer to and then you can ask questions that doesn't matter what the answer is and don't be afraid of that.

(: 33:04

So I grilled this guy and ultimately got him to admit. So I looked at the verdict form and I said, did Ricky suffer pain and suffering to date? Yes. Did he have anxiety, humiliation, mortification to date? Yes. And I did that with every single element of damages that it's on the verdict form to date. And then I redid it for he will suffer and I read the one A for the rest of his life. Yes, he will suffer B humiliation mortification for the rest of his life. Yes. So I had their expert witness agree to all of the damages from the date, the second of the accident all the way until 40 years to the end of his life. So they had to put a dollar amount for every line to 40 years because their expert admitted it. So that was fantastic and maybe I would've just stayed with those 10 commandments if I didn't hear Roger dod say, Hey, it's okay.

(: 34:03

One thing I did, I said to get a hotel here in you're standing here in Grand Rapids. Yeah. Did you have to make special calls to get a special room so that you could have a handicap accessible shower? And I went through his process. I don't know what the answer is, but I went through his process of traveling to Michigan, being a above the knee amputee and all the little things, what a pain in the ass it was for him to sit into the witness chair from Idaho where he came from. And I went through that for a good 10 minutes and I think it was very effective. I wouldn't have done that. I don't know if I would've taken that flyer without that coaching.

Dan Ambrose (: 34:45

And let's talk about this trial a bit more. So this trial took place in western Michigan, which is pretty conservative place and Michigan itself is not known for big verdicts. Occasionally you get an eight figure verdict, but it's pretty rare that you get eight figure verdicts in Michigan. But there was something unique about this case that I was very impressed with, and that is you had a, before you even started a trial, you were able to negotiate a high low. And so tell us about how that came about. And

Jason Waechter (: 35:11

So Dan, to your point in Michigan, we have no fault with motor vehicle accidents. So our client was entitled to unlimited medical expenses for the rest of his life. So that's great for him. And what I talked to Brian Pan is he's

Dan Ambrose (: 35:26

Not so great for the lawyer who can't blackboard future meds and pass meds and all this stuff that drives the damages.

Jason Waechter (: 35:31

Brian was talking to Brian Panish. So a year before this I was watching him present on a motorcycle amputation case at tlu. And

Dan Ambrose (: 35:38

No, because he did that on a bench trial in la I was there for a lot of it and he got like $23 million on a bench trial.

Jason Waechter (: 35:45

So I asked him a question and then sure enough, an hour later we're having a drink at a social event at tlu. And I say, he says, where's your motorcycle case? And I said, in Michigan, he goes, oh, I'll never try a case in Michigan. I said, why not? He goes, you can't board meds in California. You have these big medical plans and that's how we get these eight figure verdicts. Well in Michigan there's no medical plan because it's not part of our damages. So this verdict was 100% non-economic damages. There was a wage loss component, but I pulled it away because I didn't want those low numbers to anchor the other numbers. So that was a strategy I did. But to answer your question, I kept saying no, that you were getting more serious with the offers and they were offering, I said no to $3 million.

(: 36:35

We're at the courtroom stats the first time it's going to trial. I said no to $5 million. And then they approached me, I don't think it's a good idea for the plaintiff to approach the defense and ask for a high low. I think it shows weakness and that you're afraid and that you're afraid you're going to lose the money you have in costs. So they approached me and only then did I, what are we talking about here? And I negotiated. I knew what to negotiate based on big data. The big data we had. I knew that when the verdict from the big data was reduced to present value on a good day it'd be 12 million. So I negotiated the high at 13 million and then I negotiated the highest low possible, which they said, well we offered five, you got to give us a lower low than five. Okay, four. So we had a high low agreement of 4 million to 13 million. So now, yeah, I mean I was very confident with the case, but as soon as that high low agreement was in place, I feel great and I'll take maybe some more risks or go on a limb and say some things maybe I wouldn't say

Dan Ambrose (: 37:42

Because there's no appeal,

Jason Waechter (: 37:43

Right? That was so you

Dan Ambrose (: 37:44

Basically say and do whatever you want.

Jason Waechter (: 37:46

We couldn't even tell the judge that there was no appeal. They really wanted the judge to think that they could appeal. So that was part of it, which was kind of weird. That was the first time, but a high low agreement, well buy yourself a trial. And I learned that young in my career, we had this case and I agreed to a high low. They were trying to protect their insured and then as soon as the defense got the high low, they were like, Hey, we're trying the case. We're never making another offer. And you would probably know the judge in Oakland County that she made us keep coming three times before she gave us a trial. She just figured the case would go away, but they wouldn't settle because they didn't have to. Their insured was protected and a high low agreement will buy yourself a trial.

(: 38:29

But in this case, we knew we were going to trial. They approached me again, they need to protect their insurers. And with a big case like this, there's levels of insurance and I believe there was, after $15 million, it went to a different insurance company and that insurance company was yelling at these lawyers to protect them and do a high low agreement because it protected them. So they had an incentive to do it. It turned out it was great. All the stories you hear about this, usually all the lawyers that you have on like Georgio, is it Georgie's case or most of them Georgio? The last sentence is, well, we're on appeal. Hopefully in a couple years we win and we get paid. So the good part of my story is we got a $27 million verdict when it was reduced to present value, it was 13 million, 800,000. I got a check for $13 million in 60 days.

Dan Ambrose (: 39:25

That's a really good part of the story, but you're happy to know that Georgio and his mom got resolved and it was a confidential payment, but it was a big payment. It was confide lot of

Jason Waechter (: 39:36

Money. I met Steve at TLU and we were happy to talk and hear that.

Dan Ambrose (: 39:40

I'm sure he was smiling because people smile when they have money in their pocket. It's weird.

Jason Waechter (: 39:44

And I met him at your workshop, so I knew a little bit about that that case was happening. So it's nice to learn about it and hear about it and then hear that result. He's a good guy.

Dan Ambrose (: 39:54

Yeah, he's a great guy. And that was his first jury trial and his mom's first trial in 10 years. And she did my bootcamp twice and she was in my class. She couldn't be in class with her son, so she was subjected to my coaching for two full bootcamps. But they got the verdict and she did Roger Dodge cross-examination. She hired these, Steve and Olivia do this improv for a trial. She really did everything. She really worked so hard and put so much of her life. She put a half, I think she put quarter million of her own money and then borrowed a quarter million. I mean she really went all to the mat. So it was such a great thing for her. She's such a wonderful person. So it's so great when you see great people do great things, especially with years of effort and overcome great obstacles.

(: 40:39

I'm sure there's a lot of insecure moments in that case where they feel about referring it out to somebody else instead of doing it themselves. That stuff happens when you haven't been there before. You can catch what you missed on TLU on demand. It has all of the live conferences that we've done for the last three years, including TLU 2024 in Las Vegas at Caesars Palace. All nine tracks are being recorded. In addition to that, over 385 webinars and we collect the pleadings, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all of these cases. And it's an app for your phone so you can learn anytime, anywhere. If you don't have TLU on demand and you want to try it out, send me an email, dan@triallawyersuniversity.com and I'll send you a complimentary access code TLU on demand. It's the library for trial. Talking about the trial, what you tell us about some of the things that you did to get ready for it. Did you do focus groups? Did you practice your voir dire? I know you had a trial consultant there, so tell us a little bit about that process.

Jason Waechter (: 41:44

I went out to TLU or not to one of your bootcamps to get the ring rust off. That's one thing I did. I downloaded TLU on demand and when the best thing that happened, the case got dismissed. I wanted to go to trial the first time comes up for trial, you think you're ready? And were then we get kicked for 60 days.

Dan Ambrose (: 42:05

People always, I was already in, I'm like, dude, I remember when I tried a lot of criminal cases and whenever they would continue it on the day of trial, I'm like, you're fucking dead now because now I'm prepared for today. Yet everything now is just processing my unconscious mind. And all I'm doing is thinking about that case for the next 30, 60 days, whatever, refining it, honing it, practicing it. I'm like, I'm going to murder you. Just like whenever I had to do a retrial from a hung jury, I'm like, people are like, oh, now they know your story. I'm like, no, I know their story and now

Jason Waechter (: 42:34

You're whack. So that's exactly what happened is I was prepared. Now I'm going to be 10 times prepared. So one thing I did was, alright, I'm going to work on rebuttal this week. And I downloaded three podcasts or three TLU videos on rebuttal that week. And then I would listen to them in my car and then make notes and work on my rebuttal that week. And then the next week it was, I'll watch Brian Panish speed, speed jury selection. And we had that in this case, in our case, the judge, he did all the voir dire and then he let 15 minutes for the lawyers. So watching and listening to Brian Panish do his talk about when you only have 10 minutes, these are the eight questions you have to ask. And then you have to ask the three questions or whatever pertaining to your particular case.

(: 43:27

So that's one thing I did and I did it for opening statement and cross examination and it was like sometimes I would re-listen to it, but it meant something different. It was for exactly this case. I did big data, which was huge for this case. I went with more of a team approach. I assigned, I had a brand new associate. I let him do a couple family witnesses and he was only allowed to spend 15 minutes quick, get the good stuff and get out. I had Sean Murphy of my office represent the wife and the loss of consortium claim. That's something we haven't talked about yet. So I wanted to make the loss of consortium claim really perceived as a separate claim that you had to put separate dollars on. So from the beginning, Sean was the lawyer for the wife on the pleadings. I was for the plaintiff. For the plaintiff victim, he was for the wife. So they had that perception of two separate lawyers. They are two separate claims. And when we tried the case, we did the same thing. So put the wife on, he did another witness, he was able to do 10 minute opening and a 10 minute closing just based on that issue. After I got done doing my 45 minutes, we were able to share the opening and closing. So those were some things we

Dan Ambrose (: 44:49

Did. And in voir dire. So you had 20 minutes. So talk about the key issues. You talked

Jason Waechter (: 44:54

So right Brian, if you do that, Brian Panish seminar, his speech, he has eight things that you have to ask. What do you think of compensation for personal injury matters? Do you think there's too many personal injury cases? Are people too fast to sue? You want to go over those eight?

Dan Ambrose (: 45:14

Are there too many lawsuits? Are they frivolous?

Jason Waechter (: 45:16

Right?

Dan Ambrose (: 45:17

Are jury awards too high? Exactly. People too ready to sue the burden of proof in a criminal case versus a civil

Jason Waechter (: 45:23

Case. That's right. You got it right there.

Dan Ambrose (: 45:26

Look at that. But I know my Brian Pan materials. Okay,

Jason Waechter (: 45:30

And then you have to go specific for your case. One thing I'm concerned, ladies, gentlemen of the jury, one thing I'm concerned about in this case is we're suing a charity. How do you feel about the fact that the employer is responsible for what their employee did? Because they all know that's where the money's coming from. Some people might say, I don't think it's fair that the employer has to pay millions of dollars because this lady was stupid and used her cell phone while driving. What do you think of then? Motorcyclists, there's a motorcycle bias. He smoked pot before he smoked pot afterwards. Just some of those things that were really specific to our case loss of consortium. A lot of people think when you get married it's for better or worse, we're going to be asking for compensation because their relationship has changed. How do you feel about that? So those were some of the nuanced ones in our case in particular. But I also used the Brian Panish eight that we just went over,

Dan Ambrose (: 46:30

Right? And Kurt Zaner did a real good presentation at the last height of beach one on 15 minute voir dire because they got real short voir dire time limits in Denver. So just there's a little pointer for people that might have short time limits in voir dire. And on March 19th, we're actually doing a full case analysis on this verdict where we're going to spend three hours and go through in detail every topic from, of course, obviously talk about the focus groups, the big data studies, talk about your motions in limine, in depth, every question, every set of questions you did in voir dire. Walk through your opening statement with whatever visuals you use. So we see how you structured your opening, how you talked about damages or whatever the injuries were in opening, how you addressed the defenses in opening, and then talk about sequence of order of proof.

(: 47:19

Who would you call first and why? Who would you call next? What visuals you use with them. So it could really understand the plaintiff's case. But then also the opposite side, what the defendant put up, do you have video clips from deposition that you used or whatever you use to undermine their case? And then finally closing argument rebuttal. How'd you frame the money and did you make any adjustments based upon the fact that you had a high low? I mean, you could take some, why not take some liberties? Right? So stuff like that. And so that's going to be March 9th. You better be ready. This is Showtime buddy. It's your first case analysis. So you earned your way. It's like you got that verdict. And some people, they went the Super Bowl. I'm going to Disneyland, you got your verdict. I'm going to case analysis.

(: 47:59

I'm going to do a webinar. I'm coming to speak at TLU Huntington Beach. So if you can't make that, of course you were talking about TLU on demand. And so TLU on demand of course has everything we've ever done for the last three and a half years. So everything, every webinar that we did during the pandemic starting in March of 2020, so there's almost, I think there's actually more than 400 webinars now. And we collect the pleadings, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all these cases. So there's a great, really, it's like a library for trial, but then it's also an app for your phone, which is great. So you can learn anytime, anywhere.

Jason Waechter (: 48:35

I mentioned I hired a new attorney and one way you got to train them, right?

Dan Ambrose (: 48:41

Really you got to train new attorneys. They don't come out of law school ready to really produce some great content, some great work product and really be a valuable asset to your team. You have to train them.

Jason Waechter (: 48:52

And we know our time is the most valuable thing we have and it's finite.

Dan Ambrose (: 48:55

Especially you take so many freaking vacations, you really better learn how to back your time. I'm

Jason Waechter (: 49:00

Trying to give you a plug here, Dan, but it's true. I make him download TLU on demand and if he's going to go do a 30 B six deposition, let's say he is to go watch Mark Co, who's the authority on, they wrote the book on it who's presented for three hours at TLU. He's to watch those three hours and then come talk to me about how to apply it to the specific case he's working on. So I use TLU, the best lawyers in the country are teaching my associate and it's freeing me up. And then also he and I meet once a month to go over all his cases and during that time, he's supposed to report to me. He's supposed to watch one video, at least one video per week, and he has to report to me which one he watched and what he learned. So I'm using TLU on demand to teach my associate.

Dan Ambrose (: 49:55

No, that's great to hear because I think it's such a valuable resource. I try to really make sure that every program we do is a great learning vehicle and then all the people speaking, because it's not just the webinars too, but such great presentations at the live conferences, which I think the presentations are better. So many different tracks at once. I mean, trial lawyers are inherently competitive. I mean the most competitive beast there is, right?

Jason Waechter (: 50:22

Oh, I use it because I can't get to all the speeches that I want to see at the seminar. So I use it because I can't get to everything.

Dan Ambrose (: 50:32

Right? And Satch Oliver and Joe Free's book for three full days at TLU Vegas. I mean that's a lot of great content from two really brilliant lawyers

Jason Waechter (: 50:42

Speak of the devil. Just happened to have it right here. I bought it. Depositions our trial. I bought it at

Dan Ambrose (: 50:46

TLU, right? I mean it's just book right? And I watching this stuff too. And it talks about cadence and how you ask. I mean, everything matters so much. All the details matter and they just take practice and repetition and, and this exciting part is just the constant, constant learning is the exciting part because it doesn't ever get boring. It never gets boring. It never gets boring. That's the fun part. Jason, where's your next trip to, oh, you said, where are you going now? Thailand.

Jason Waechter (: 51:15

I'm going to, my wife's Thai, my current wife. I haven't met my third wife yet.

Dan Ambrose (: 51:20

Your current wife?

Jason Waechter (: 51:21

It's a line. My dad would say he's real brave when she's not in the room, but alright. Joking aside. Yeah, I've been to Thailand a few times. I go every other year. My wife goes every year. So it's the other year. So I'm going to Thailand in February.

Dan Ambrose (: 51:35

Well thank, I'm not going to Thailand in June, so you won't be missing Huntington Beach, but you're going to be teaching in Huntington Beach. So what is it you're going to be presenting on in your, well,

Jason Waechter (: 51:46

As you know, I don't think we've said it yet. I'm known as the motorcycle lawyer.

Dan Ambrose (: 51:50

No way.

Jason Waechter (: 51:51

The

Dan Ambrose (: 51:51

Motorcycle

Jason Waechter (: 51:52

Lawyer. And that's why I have a motorcycle behind me in my office. My clients love it. So with motorcycle cases, one of the nuances I see is motorcycles will go down because of road defects for obvious reasons, whether it's through a road construction zone or just the regular road that is not kept up. So I've had a number of cases and I've been pretty successful. They're very nuanced, they're very different and everybody has, I don't think every personal injury lawyer has handled one. So I'm going to talk about road defect cases, whether you're suing the municipality, the county, the state, or a construction company.

Dan Ambrose (: 52:37

Oh, I'm working on a road defect case with my buddy Mike Karp out of Wisconsin. He's a really great young lawyer. He's only like 33 and he's already got an eight figure verdict, but he's way ahead of you. Took you 30 years, only took him four. But anyways, not to disparage your results here, but anyways, he's got this big case coming up in Northern California, I think in April he's dealing with another buddy of mine, ard, but we're going to do a couple focus groups here in Vegas on it. He did my bootcamp too. So he is coming to Vegas and we're going to use Pan's Courtroom to do a couple focus groups in March, I think March 11th and 12th. And it's a road defect case. So guess what? We'll be calling you for your insights. It's a pothole like three feet big that took the guy down.

(: 53:20

And so that'll be a good insightful for you to gt be help. It'd be real helpful. So Mike Carrp, keep that meme in mind when he calls you, you'll know who he is. Alright, so I think that covers everything we had to talk about today, Jason, because we're ready to go now. I don't want to spoil it for all the people that are going to tune in March 19th about this verdict. A little precursor. I'm excited for it too. Nothing makes me happier than see one of my friends or even people that are not my friends, but somebody that's worked real hard on honing their skills, going to conferences, doing the reps, doing the workshops, and just constantly focused on learning and they all comes together into a big verdict and it's a life accomplishment really getting a big verdict like that.

Jason Waechter (: 54:06

Well thanks Dan. And I think that's right is I'm really the regular guy that just kept at it, always learning. I've had a lot of experience, but that's what you gain over years and you got to go out and find the right mentors, the right materials, and you got to stand on your feet and practice and just keep getting better. So yeah, that's my story.

Dan Ambrose (: 54:25

The right mentors. It's hard to find mentors these days and that's kind of like when we started the webinars, it was kind of like, it's just getting everybody to mentor me. I was like when people are always like, Hey, thank you so much for all you did. TLU has really helped me a lot. I'm like, you're welcome. But if I'm just honest with you, I'm student number one. I mostly did it for myself. Everything we do, mostly for ourselves. I mean there's collateral benefits to others, but I want to learn, you know what I mean? I want to become the great trial lawyer. I did all this because I was just trying to figure it out and that's why this year, 2025, it's my year for the trial lawyer because now plus it's going to be a great, because then I'm on everybody else's journey. I don't have any eight figure verdicts. I didn't even have a seven figure verdict. I got one six figure verdict I never collected on a paternity suit, but that was about it. So I'm really looking forward to the process, the process of really becoming a trial lawyer.

Jason Waechter (: 55:16

Dan, you've done such a great job with TLU. You've come so far, always getting better and it's such a great product. You have the best lawyers in the country in our field showing up time after time and TLU on demand is fantastic. So thanks for that and congratulations. Thanks for having me today.

Dan Ambrose (: 55:32

Oh yeah, but Jason, we're not done yet here buddy. So how do people get ahold of you? Jason? They might have a question about him in Michigan or a motorcycle question and you're the motorcycle lawyer, so don't have to do false advertising. You better feel it to help people if they got the motorcycle questions,

Jason Waechter (: 55:46

Easy website to remember the motorcycle lawyer.com and that'll have all my information, but I'm always giving my cell phone. I'm not afraid to give my cell phone out four one seven eight three seven one. Call me about anything

Dan Ambrose (: 55:59

Who would call you that didn't actually have a question. Although you are, I could see you probably get some stalkers of both genders because you're such a handsome fellow. But I don't think when I learned

Jason Waechter (: 56:09

That when you speak, when I speak, I always give my cell phone and some people call and I'm not afraid to help. I'll help anybody that calls. I think it's part of our duty to give back. So people have helped me along the way. Happy to help anybody. I would agree.

Dan Ambrose (: 56:22

And the TLUN demand though, so if you shoot me an email at Dan at Traveller University or text me at (248) 808-3130 or call me, I'll be happy to give you a month complimentary access to TLUN demand so you can kind of try it out and see if it's something to go to you, something that's valuable for you. And if it is, then you can subscribe. And if it's not, just cancel. It won't hurt my feelings. I don't want people to pay for stuff they don't use because that's not a good value. I hate paying for shit I don't use,

Jason Waechter (: 56:50

It's a good idea. I'll add my email address as well, jason@themotorcyclelawyer.com.

Dan Ambrose (: 56:55

The motorcycle lawyer. Okay, Mr. Motorcycle lawyer. Good hanging out with you senior, don't freeze your ass off there in Michigan. And let's see, I'll be seeing you on well before March 19th because we've got to do a little prep session because you got to make sure your debut on the TLU webinars is a stellar moment in your career. So that way, next thing next year, somebody says, Jason, what's what you most thing you're most proud of in your career? And you can say, I presented on TLU webinar. That's what you're going to say.

Jason Waechter (: 57:22

Alright,

(: 57:23

Thanks Dan. Have a great day. You got it. Take care.

Voice Over (: 57:26

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