Ryan Skiver – Ryan Skiver – Training to BE a Trial Lawyer, Reps, Reps, Reps

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The most dangerous place you can be as a trial lawyer is to think you've got it figured out.

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I'm still trying to get better. I still have the passion for it. I believe in it. Everyone can learn to do what I do. And yet there's a group here that continues to get extraordinary

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Verdicts, trial lawyers, universities revolutionizing educating lawyers to be better trial lawyers. It's been invaluable to me. Trial Lawyers University where the titans come to train produced and powered by law pods.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:00:31

Well, we got Ryan Sky with us here today all the way from Arizona and Ryan and I be going back a little ways, crossing paths and tell us, Ryan, what makes you special?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:00:43

I don't know that there's anything that makes me special. I think the thing that has helped me the most is hard work. I was raised in the Midwest and I always was taught that if you put in the time and the effort that it'll pay off. So I think anybody can do what I do. It just takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, and really working to educate yourself and improve.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:01:08

Those are key things. The constant desire to improve and the discipline to train because a lot of people want to get better, but they just make explanations and excuses about not having time because you don't have time. We all got the same time. So if you're not making time, just forget about it. Right? Because then you're just making excuses. It's just the reality of it. So Ryan, before we get into your journey and all the work that you've done, the mentors that have helped you and the reading and the programs you've taken along the way, before we get out of that, tell us about how the big idea to become a lawyer crossed your mind at what point of life.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:01:47

Well, it's funny, my grandma originally told me that she thought I would either be a lawyer or an actor, and I didn't really agree with her. My dad was a doctor and he actually went to night school to become a lawyer. After he became a lawyer, he started defending doctors' malpractice cases and he would come home and talk about his cases with me. So I would get the chance to issue spot and kind of learn from him what he was trying to figure out on his cases, and I always found that to be interesting. But then I went to college and I majored in finance. I was planning on doing that when I was done. I worked all kinds of jobs When I was in undergrad for finance, I worked at a bank, I did venture capital. I worked for Merrill Lynch making cold calls, which was miserable.

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I worked at HBO and participations in residuals and actually got caught falling asleep one time there. It was so boring. And then after I came out of college, there were no jobs and I didn't really want to do that boring work. So my dad suggested law school, and since I like public speaking and competition, I figured I'd give it a try. So I took a year off and lived in Los Angeles. I knew I wanted to be in a big city, so it was la, New York, Chicago. I was sick of freezing my ass off in Ohio, so it became la. So I moved out there for a year, worked for Proctor and Gamble, going around to different stores and things like that, making sure their products were there. Then as part of that time also I worked for a post-production company driving videos back and forth and getting food for celebrities and things like that.

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Then I also worked as extra for fun on TV shows and movies. Took that year off, went to Southwestern, which was the only two year program in the country at the time. So I started there and then I actually liked it and realized that I wanted to study abroad and to be able to work for a law firm during the summer. So I switched to the three year program. I was able to study abroad in Madrid, which was a lot of fun. And then I worked for the DA's office at the last year, basically the summer before and the last year, and I got to do my first jury trial. It was a recanting victim in a domestic violence case. So I really didn't have much support and the DA's or assistant das all told me I was going to lose, and somehow I ended up pulling it out and getting guilty, which was amazing because that guy deserved to be found guilty based on his rap sheet and everything else he had done that didn't get to come in. But I just fell in love with it. I loved being in front of a jury and I love being able to seek justice.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:04:35

So you go to Southwestern, you get to study abroad. I guess what was the best thing about studying abroad? Because I never got to study abroad in law school or college, and everybody talks about it just has the most faces light up when you talk about studying abroad. So

Ryan Skiver (: 00:04:48

Absolutely. I actually studied abroad in undergrad in London. That was the first time, and I got to travel, went to nine different countries and you get to meet people and really understand people better, which is one of the things that I love. So I wanted to get back over to Europe and study abroad again so that I could do the same thing. So I hit another nine or 10 countries that trip as well and went all over Spain. But really it's seeing the different cultures and understanding that not everybody's the same. People have different perspectives, and that really, I think comes into play also as a trial lawyer, you have to realize not everybody thinks like you, and to be able to communicate with them, you have to understand where they're coming from.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:05:31

You said you went to Southwestern and you got to participate a little bit in a trial. Did you do anything else in law school as far as mock trial at trial A to get yourself prepared or headed towards the direction of being a trial lawyer?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:05:43

I did. I was on the trial ad team, which was really interesting and a lot of fun. We had two great instructors who worked for the LA DA's office in the major crimes and gang unit. So they had a ton of trial experience and really helped us to understand the presentation and what you're going for as part of cross-examination and things like that. So they were also the ones who helped us get jobs at the DA's office to get the trial experience. That was my favorite class by far or extracurricular or whatever you might call it in law school.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:06:21

Okay. So you do your three years at Southwestern. You got your little bit of experience in the courtroom with your one criminal case, your trial A. So when you first get out, where does Ryan Skiver get his first paying job?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:06:34

So when I first came out, I was going to work for the DA's office in la, but I lived in Redondo Beach, and so they told me that I had a 50 50 shop of either being in Torrance, which is where I had been, or in Compton. I didn't think that I would do very well in Compton, so I didn't really want to take that risk of winding up there and having to walk into the courthouse every day from the parking lot and out of the courthouse. So I decided to move up my plan schedule of moving to Arizona. So I moved to Arizona and took the bar exam here immediately after. So California was 2005, Arizona was 2006, and then I needed to find work while I waited for my results. So I just started sending out resumes and cover letters. I did not know anybody. Basically just went through the state bar website looking at all the different names of firms, and I made it to the letter B before I got some interviews and actually got offered a job with a law firm who handled construction law.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:07:42

Is that where you started out with the construction law firm?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:07:45

It is, and it was not necessarily the work that I knew I wanted to do, but I needed work and I needed money. So I started handling construction litigation. People are fighting over three screws missing from a door and spending thousands and thousands of dollars. I'm like, just put the screws in yourself. Why are we dealing with this issue? But then we also added family law. So I was like, okay, I get to try something else. And that was even more miserable. I felt horrible for these families and what they were going through the worst experience of their lives, and then they would get a trial for two hours or four hours and these kids' lives would be decided You're going to go stay with them or do this, and it just wasn't the work I wanted to do.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:08:29

I had a couple family law cases in my youth and the most difficult clients and most horrible of situations and most emotionally draining work there is made this family law like God bless you, but it's not for me. So you do that construction litigation. How long did you stay with that when they had the family law component?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:08:50

I was with that firm for three years and then I decided I was going to go out on my own, start my own firm and the firm we shared office space with actually heard I was leaving and asked me if I wanted to come and practice with them. Is that what

Dan Ambrose (: 00:09:04

You did?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:09:05

I did. I figured having the safety net of them handing me cases would be nice to make sure I at least had some guaranteed income, and it just so happened that they did personal injury law. I never thought I would get into personal injury law. It never crossed my radar in law school of what I would do. I figured it'd be some type of business litigation or something like that, but they did personal injury law and they were pretty well established here in Phoenix.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:09:32

So how long do you spend with this firm doing the personal injury before you move on and what'd you learn there?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:09:37

So one of the partners came into my office and handed me a book and said, here, read this. We're going to a seminar in a couple of weeks. So I said, okay. So got the book, read the book, and we signed up for this seminar and the book was the Reptile. So I went to my first seminar on personal injury law and it was Don Keenan and David Ball talking about their book, the Reptile, and it was really interesting and it just made sense to me to start with the defendant and their conduct as opposed to focusing on the plaintiff right out of the bat because of the things like the negative attribution and juries thinking the plaintiff is the reason we're there as opposed to the reality of the defendant's conduct and their actions is what brought us there. So I really enjoyed that first conference and decided to follow up with that and go to another conference.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:10:29

So that started your journey of learning as far as the strategy and skills of a trial lawyer, which I want to spend a great deal of time talking with you about because you I believe have done more variety of programs than anybody I know, even myself, and I've been involved in a lot of different programs except for ones that they expressly forbid me to come to. I signed up for Rick Friedman's, the program he does. I was all signed up ready to go, and Rick Friedman called me and said, Dan, you are not a good candidate for my program. I'm like, okay, I get rejected before even meet me sometimes. He's like, I heard you have an abrasive personality. I'm like, I've been working on it, but apparently not hard enough, but I continue to work on it. But before we get into talking about your educational journey, I want to finish up with how you got to starting your own firm still. Now you're at this other firm with the partner there, you're learning about the reptile and what happens from there? You take it to the big first conference with the job, the professional wise though.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:11:28

Yeah, so with that firm, I kind of, like I said, I had my own practice within the firm. They had a really nice setup so I could grow as I wanted to add paralegals and things like that. So I think the first part of it, I actually just did it all myself because I didn't want to take a draw. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be hungry and make sure that I worked as hard as I could to make money first. So I worked 16 hours a day, six to seven days a week to get to the point where I could actually make money because obviously personal injury is all contingency. So I finally did that and then built up my practice, added paralegals, and then got to a point where I may partner there and was partner there for a while. So 2010 to 2016 I was with that firm and then I decided, and we both kind of agreed that we had kind of outgrown each other in the way that we were handling cases. I wanted to handle less cases and bigger cases, and they do a great job of handling a good amount of cases without doing too many, but I really wanted to cut my workload down and just handle the bigger 7, 8, 9 figure cases. So 2016 I went out on my own.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:12:48

That's when you started Skiver Law,

Ryan Skiver (: 00:12:51

The Skiver Law Firm? Yes,

Dan Ambrose (: 00:12:53

The Skiver Law firm. And then eventually you teamed up with some guy named Kellen, is that right?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:12:58

Yes, Kellen Bradley, as you can see, hey,

Dan Ambrose (: 00:13:00

Sky Bradley. Got it. And when did you guys team up?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:13:04

So we had worked on some cases together before and he had been at a couple different firms and then when he was planning on leaving his firm, he reached out and we figured it'd be a good time to get together and start working together on all our cases. So that was the beginning of this year of 2024, although I think this will be airing in 2025. So beginning of 2024 is when we first started.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:13:31

They have to be a pretty fast turnaround time because we're now, what is it, December 27th, we're broadcasting live from Cabo San Lucas and you're in Arizona, so I doubt they're going to get this turned around in two days. So we're going to welcome the first program of 2025. We had to do our one podcast with Ryan Skiver before the end of the year, and so that's your professional journey to where you're at right now. But like I said, as I mentioned earlier, out of all the people I know have done more variety of education searching for, because I've been on this journey now since the time I got my bar card, I started reading cross-examination science and technique. I'd stop at the coffee shop every night, read for a couple hours. I reread the book a few times and I know you've read that and done dodge training and a lot of stuff. So let's talk about your journey. You started with the reptile. Tell us about the reptile journey.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:14:24

Yeah, so I mentioned that first seminar that I went to with Don and David, the Welcome to the Revolution, I think it was in 2010. And I really liked it Made sense, and they had a deposition seminar coming up in LA in a few months. So I figured I would head over to LA and get a vacation out of it and learn some more. And we went to that. Charles Allen was the main guy who was Don's partner at the time, and he was talking about depositions and techniques, strategies, and then we split up into smaller groups and I was lucky enough to have Satch Oliver as my instructor, and our group was probably like eight to 10 lawyers. Most of them were 20, 30, 40 years in practice who had a lot more experience than me, but they had all learned to start with the plaintiff. And so some of them were kind of struggling with the topics, but I was lucky that I learned that approach with the defendant first from the start.

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So being the nerd that I am, I was kind of answering the questions as Satch was asking, and then he had to step outside for some reason for a little bit and asked me if I would run the group. I said, sure, happy to. And so he came back, we finished up, thought nothing of it. Then the next week I got a call from Don's office and they said, Don heard what you did. He wants to know if you want to handle any cases with them. So I said, yeah, of course, all of my cases. And I said, well pick two and send them over. So I sent over two cases, I think one was a med mal and the other was an armored truck case, and Don chose the armored truck case. So I, as a referring attorney with him, was able to go to his and David Ball seminars and they had them all across the country.

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So basically what I did was once a month or once every two months, I would fly all over the country to these seminars I got in for free and just take in all the information I possibly could and then have fun in whatever city I was in. And so we did that for a while before they started Keenan Ball College. And then I was asked to be an instructor for that, and that was really helpful. The courses were broken down and the topics were safety rules, opening statement, deposition, things like that. And that transitioned at some point to Keenan Trial Institute. I was an instructor with that and learned all of those things firsthand from Don, which was amazing. He's a great mentor and was really helpful. I also read all of his blogs and outside of that there was a lot of other stuff that I was reading and learning at the time and kind of putting it together with that system that I was learning from Don.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:17:10

Okay. So as far as the reptile goes, so you said you started teaching with them or kind of traveling with them and working with Don, we all got to know what happened with your Armor truck case. What happened when you had the great Don Keen and co concierge case? Tell us about what happened.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:17:25

Sure. It's funny, I started with it and the only training I'd really had was on smaller cases. So I was working it up the same way that I had learned for those smaller cases. And his partner came in and looked at it and he says, what the hell is this? This is shit. He's like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know. I'm like, I'm trying to learn. That's why I'm here. And so his partner actually originally was like, how did you even get past me? He was like the gatekeeper and told him how it happened. He's like, all right, well I don't like this at all. This isn't a case we'd normally take. But I learned from Don and basically would do everything I possibly could to improve and make it better. And we had a very significant seven figure result that was the biggest at my firm at that time. We settled three days before trial was going to start out here, and I love those clients there. I still talk to them all the time. They're some of my favorites. But I learned how to put together a trucking case and focus on systems failures instead of just treating it like a car accident because truck crashes, they're not car accidents. So looking for the systems failure, putting it together and getting the result that our clients deserved was fantastic, and that was hooked.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:18:40

So how many years did you spend teaching with Don Keenan and the Reptile Keenan Trial College, whatever you want to call it?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:18:48

So the first seminar was in 2010, I think Don and David started the Keenan Ball College in 2012. So I was one of the first instructors and I taught through that into Keenan Trial Institute and then was the trial dean, if you will. That's what they labeled the person that was in charge of the course. And then same thing for closing arguments, liability, I moved up to the graduate level and was teaching that. And all in all, I think it was approximately 12 years that I was teaching, and I think I taught more than any other instructor because I loved learning. I mean, I had students who were 30 and 40 years practicing that had great results and they would have stuff to teach the class as well. So I took all of that stuff from them and learn to look at a bunch of different types of cases and figure out how to frame them and put them together in the most effective way.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:19:48

So other than Don Keenan and David Ball and the folks there, tell us about the other courses and classes, mentors that you've kind of as best you can in the order you took them.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:20:01

So Don Kean obviously is my mentor. He is fantastic. I've learned a ton from him. And actually one of my students in one of those courses became another mentor for me. His name is Jim Moriarty and he's out of Houston, Texas. He had, I believe the first billion dollar recovery in Mass Torts and he was one of my students and really enjoyed when I was teaching and asked me if I wanted to work with him and handle his cases at trial for him. So I got him as a mentor in the Mass Torts arena and started working with him, and that was fantastic. As far as outside of the Keenan stuff, I know I'm going to leave a lot out here because every time I saw something I would try to learn it or read it or whatever it might be. So books saw from Levine on advocacy, Jerry Spence, Rick Friedman Rules The Road, polarizing the case. Other books outside of that like Checklist, manifesto, Malcolm Gladwell's, things like Blink Tipping Point, his information is always helpful. Books on neuroscience like Persuasion by Robert Ani, I think is the way he pronounce his name. But then in addition to that, obviously seminars and conferences. So like A ZAJ had Don Bauermeister come and do a seminar. He was amazing.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:21:23

Let's talk about books. Okay. If you had to pick one book, so a trial lawyer listening to this, they say, okay, this is a one book that I say you got to read to get better at trial. What's the one book?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:21:33

Oh man. Well, that's kind of a loaded question if you say at trial because

Dan Ambrose (: 00:21:39

No, to better at the skills or craft of being a trial lawyer.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:21:43

I mean obviously I have to go back to the reptile because that was what started all for me. It was a great foundation. So the only problem is the reptile is like a little post-it on a map of the world. They didn't put much information in there. There's so much more to learn outside of that. Even if you read the book, it doesn't really give you the reptile information. So that was a great foundational book, but the rules of the Road was really helpful to understand that. And then I started with missed cases too. So polarizing the case was huge. I thought that was great. From Rick Friedman, some of those other books like Levine is really useful when you understand what you're looking for. The problem is when you read some of these things, you don't understand enough when you're reading 'em the first time. So as you go along in your career and you learn more things, you can read 'em again and you take a lot more from them. So that's what I would recommend is even the books you've read before after you've been practicing for 5, 10, 15 years, go back and read 'em again because there's so much more information in there.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:22:52

You mentioned the Arizona Association of Justice and Don, because Don, I just got to know him because he came to Huntington Beach last year. I dunno if you saw him there or not. And he came by business, our Huntington Beach conference. He's going to come teach this year in Huntington Beach. But what did you learn from Don

Ryan Skiver (: 00:23:09

Don's was really interesting. That was right at the beginning. And it's funny you say that about him being at Huntington was because that was how I was refreshed of who he was and that's what made me look back through to figure out the stuff that he talked about because it was like neuroscience and all of the ways that we make decisions and the fact that it's based on emotion as opposed to logic. So that was really useful and I loved his seminar that he gave.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:23:38

Well, he'll be in our Honey speech conference this year is June 4th through seventh at the pass. And Donna be there. I think we're speaking for three hours. You'll have quite a good chunk of information to share. I'm looking forward to that. You said you were there last year, speaking of Huntington Beach, I know that you were at the, but what was your favorite things about the Huntington Beach Conference of 2024? Because that was my favorite conference that I've ever attended or obviously I put it on so I'm a little biased, but that one had everything for me. But what did you like best about it?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:24:10

2024 was a lot of fun. That location, that hotel is amazing. The parties you throw are a blast, maybe a little too much fun sometimes that's crazy. That's PLAs. And the information is great too. You have so many options and the fact that it's being recorded, you can watch it later is nice because even though you may have some FOMO while you're there, you can always get caught up and find it later. But the best thing for me was actually sitting in on your presentation about the TLU bootcamp with Joe Free about presentation skills. I had been searching to find the best way to learn those presentation skills. I had done some, I took an acting class in college, like an extra course that you had to take or whatever. I thought that was fun. I did apply, but then I tried to find other places where I could get that same stuff.

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And I actually went to Jesse Wilson's Colorado workshop. It wasn't really what I was looking for as far as presentation skills go. And I tried when I got back here also to find an acting coach, which was helpful. She really got me to explore some different things I hadn't thought about with voice control and tempo and pace and using your body along with the emotions that you're trying to convey. But then when I went to your seminar, your lecture at the 2024 Huntington Beach, it was exactly what I was looking for essentially. So I talked to you and said, Hey, I want to come out to a bootcamp. And we just needed to find the time because obviously with a busy schedule, and I have a 2-year-old at home now, had to try to work that in with a law firm and get out to Vegas, spend that time with you. But I'm so

Dan Ambrose (: 00:26:08

Glad and your wife, don't forget, you had to work in with your wife. That was of course's

Ryan Skiver (: 00:26:12

Part of the 2-year-old thing. So I had to work the schedule with my wife and the two-year-old and my partner obviously and get out there and work with you. It was great. It was exactly the stuff I was looking for for the presentation skills that you can't really find anywhere else.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:26:28

So the bootcamp that Ryan did when almost got canceled because there was only three students signed up and I wanted to go to Satch Oliver's depositions, our trial thing that he was doing with John Roman in connection, but I'm like, Skybird, we got to reschedule this. She's like, no way, man. This is the only time I could come. You got to do it. So we did. I'm really glad we did. It was super fun. It was a really small class. I think it was like four or five students in the class. We had a great time. But as far as, because we talk about presentation skills and talk a little bit more about that to me, presentation, it's a skill and it's the most important skill that you have in the courtroom because everything, like all the strategy, the workup, the voir dire, the opening, the visual, that's all stuff done before the courtroom getting prepared.

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But most people never actually practice or train the skills of presentation and eye contact, learning how to make appropriate eye contact with a dozen people in three seconds and slowly ramp that up over the voir dire over time. And training ourselves to make eye contact people before we start talking to them, pausing for a minute when we're done to break that eye contact and also glance control, drawing people's eyes to one side or the other, getting people to look where you want them to look is a skill. It's a skill that needs to be practiced. You need to be demonstrated. Let the person try it. Feedback, coaching and all these skills. I don't know. To me, Bob goes in my mind that somebody could try to train presentation skills without videotaping. So not about that. The videotaping aspect. Prior to my bootcamp, how much had you videotaped yourself and broken down your presentation before

Ryan Skiver (: 00:28:15

That? I really hadn't. Unless it was a situation where I was giving a speech or something like that, that would be the only time really where I would go back and look at my presentation skills because I could set up a camera and see what I was doing. And actually as I'm watching you here, I don't have obviously the same skill on camera as you do because getting your and movement in and not getting that because of the level, and I noticed that it's moving with your voice, which is nice, but the practice with you and getting it on camera, when you go back and look at it, you start to realize all the issues that you have that you don't know that you have. I caught some before from teaching in front of students and seeing what issues they had and correcting them if I got up there would notice hands moving weird or playing in their pockets with change, that kind of thing. So I was always cognizant of that. But really sitting there with a video recording and knowing what it's supposed to look like is really helpful. You can kind of internalize it too. It really sticks in your mind a lot more. And you can run through those reps as well in your head better because you know what it's supposed to look like.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:29:28

When people do my class a lot of times like, oh, this is acting skills for trial lawyers. And I'm always like, Bravo. They're acting skills. Trial is a performance and it's a performance of persuasion. And any actor, you have a stage left, you have stage right. You know what I mean? You have sort of like whatever you would call that third wall if you're trying to create delusion. You know what I mean? Trying to create space because one of the things, most important things I think that we talk about and teach is the creation of space. That whenever there's a verb in a story that has to be action and if there's action, that action has to take place somewhere and a place as a space. So if you have a verb, you automatically should know that you should be creating space, you should be creating an illusion.

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Because to me, the great skill of a trial lawyer is to transport the audience, to transport the jury from that little space inside that courtroom to take them back in time and make them witnesses to the events that brought us here so that way they experienced it viscerally. And you can't transport somebody else until you can transport yourself, which is basically putting yourself into that kind of story trance and to create, because like Dave Clark, who you met at my place and he's my mentor, I remember him telling me when we were out back in 2012, I think it was, we were in Des Moines, Iowa watching Spencer's last trial. That's where I met him. And I demonstrated my presumption of innocence. Why dear? And he's like, does that shit work for you? I'm like you, I've only lost two out of the last a hundred trials.

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I think it's working. He's like, any idea why it works? I'm like, you got me. How the fuck do I know? And he is like, when you can make the unconscious conscious, you're going to be dangerous. In the civil world, we call that rich. I'm a criminal defense lawyer, but basically getting paid less than a public defender because public defender's got a guaranteed paycheck. And as a criminal defense lawyer representing a lot of indigent people, he didn't have any guaranteed paychecks. But of course I'd like to be rich, but I didn't really comprehend what he meant by that at that moment. But obviously in course of training and time afterwards, it does make sense because when people we're all great storytellers, when it's our own story, the skill of a trial, lawyers become a great storyteller when it's somebody else's story. That's the big skill.

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And it combined the skills of eye contact, emotional state control. So when you say good morning to everybody, you have a warm face, like the same warm face you would have when you see a friend that and it's like, Hey Ryan, what's going on? But it's that same face though. So to the unconscious mind it's like, oh, we must be old friends. If you're looking at me like that. And the ability to use our hands effectively, we can only connect with one person at a time. Obviously we still to use one hand to keep that one hand between ourselves and the person we're connecting with. And if we train ourselves to move our hand with the rhythm of our voice, it seems so obvious. And it is once you do it, but until you see it, it's like you'll sit there with two hands. What I mean, most lawyers jerking by their sides and it's like you just see it all the time on glance control when people use a demonstrative.

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Yet if I want to show you my slim pop, but I look back at you to see if you're looking, of course you're looking into my eyes and nobody's looking at visuals anymore, but just these basic things like my friend Dave Christensen, he's like just slowing down and making eye contact before he started talking. Just those two little things right there. Forget about the rest of the skills because you can only learn these skills. I mean, you got to learn 'em over time, you got to practice them, but you just learn a little bit. You practice every day, which is the key part is practicing the skills with every person. But it's such a great thing because every person we meet, we get a chance to connect with. And if we connect with them, it's much more likely they're going to do what we ask them to do than if they just think we're ordering or bossing them around and connections life.

(: 00:33:14

I love when people do my bootcamp like, wow, this skills are much, they're more valuable than just the courtroom. My wife and I get along better than ever. It's like I'm listening to her. I'm like, it's amazing, huh? It's good stuff. Got to keep it up. You can catch what you missed on TLU On demand. It has all of the live conferences that we've done for the last three years, including TLU 2024 in Las Vegas at Caesars Palace. All nine tracks are being recorded. In addition to that, over 385 webinars. And we collect the pleadings, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all of these cases. And it's an app for your phone so you can learn anytime, anywhere. If you don't have TLU on demand and you want to try it out, send me an email dan@triallawyersuniversity.com and I'll send you a complimentary access code. TLU OnDemand, it's the library for trial.

(: 00:34:10

So Ryan, you just completed the TLU Skills bootcamp back in November because your lovely wife finally gave you a hall pass and I guess your 2-year-old also had to give you a hall pass to come to it. And the skills that we learned, and we practice for a presentation and connection, of course the key ones are of course our eye contact, emotional state control, voice control, hand movement, lance control, creating space. Those are really the key areas that we really dig into. So tell us, what did you learn about eye contact or I guess maybe not just learn but also kind of maybe reinforced?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:34:45

Sure. Eye contact obviously is very important for making a connection with your jurors. You don't want to creep 'em out with looking at them too long, but you want to make sure that you give them respect of looking them in the eye before you start speaking. And if you have a panel of 12, 14 potential jurors, you can briefly make eye contact with each of them and about a three second timeframe. And as you go throughout your case, you want to kind of ramp up your eye contact with your jurors to really make that connection stronger and make sure that they feel important as you're delivering the information to them.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:35:24

So if we first stand up, I call it micro connecting so that we can look at 12 people in less than three seconds. And so the idea is to get people comfortable looking us in the eyes because typically people are not, if you walk down the street, look at somebody, look away immediately like that. And so these people, we need them to look us in the eyes, we need them to want to connect with us. And I think by getting them comfortable just a little bit at a time and then ramping it up really helps a lot in that regard. And speaking of eye contact, it's also segues ready into glance control. So tell us what did you learn about that?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:36:03

The glance control is using that connection that you have with them, with your eyes to get them to look where you want, which is obviously important because you have demonstratives or other visuals. So you want to make sure that you make the connection with them and draw their eyes towards whatever you want them to be looking at. If you look back at them while they're supposed to be looking at something, it's confusing for 'em and it may break that connection. So it's important to control where you're looking so that you can help to make it easier for them to know where they should be looking.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:36:36

When you say, well, if you look back at, if you're using a visual, and if I was using this visual, I wanted to look at Travelers University on my mug here, I have to look at as soon as I look back to see if you're looking by natural default as human beings, we look at people in the eye who are look at us. So now everybody looks at me instead of looking at my visual and it loses its effectiveness because you're trying to create a group experience and to keep the group focused and have all eyes moving focus simultaneously. And part of that too is this. We under look at something from the right and we start over to the Jira on the far left and kind move across and micro connect their eyes from left to, and then we get over to our right. It kind of drags 'em by their eyes over to this visual. Or if we want to create space to our right or to our left, create the illusion, then that I think is a helpful technique. And speaking of creating space, I know this was a bigger thing for you to figure out. This is creating space or create an illusion. So tell us, what'd you learn about that?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:37:32

Yeah, the creating space I had always kind of been looking for, it's a great way to tell stories because you can essentially take your jurors into the space where it happened so they can kind of be witnesses to what occurred. So when you're talking about a story, obviously it takes place in a space, and so you want to take them to that space so they can experience it as well. So you transport them essentially by the way that you communicate, and if you have action, then you need action within that same space. So it's important to make sure you don't break that illusion because if you go back and make eye contact with them while you're supposed to be in that space, then it really breaks up the illusion of the story that you're telling.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:38:20

And so I kind of look at creating spaces. It's kind of similar to when people tell stories. When we tell stories from our own lives, we all create space because we're not working on it. We're focusing on the image in our mind. And the only time we ever come back and look at people when we're actually telling stories in our lives, it's just to check in and make sure that they're following the story, that their emotional state matches the story we're telling. If not, then we're like, are you following me? But if they are, we can tell by their face. And so creating space is really about making the unconscious conscious. What Clark really taught me all those years ago, we were at Spence's last trial and took time for me to process what that meant. But unconsciously, we're all great storytellers. Unconsciously our hands move at perfect timing with our stories.

(: 00:39:05

Our facial expressions change perfectly with our stories. There are stories, but when we tell a trial story, it ain't our story. But if we create space and we do it really well, it makes it look like it's our own story. It makes it feel like it's our own story. And what it does, it allows us, if we do it really well, it allows us to transport into the story to almost relive it in front of the jury. And then if we can transport ourselves into the story, then naturally we can transport the audience or the jury so they're not just here, but they actually experience or become witnesses to the events that led us here. And if they experience it, they can't be talked out of it. And that's why it's such an important skill to master. And you see the great trial lawyers doing it.

(: 00:39:44

It's like the narrative. The further we can get away from the narrative generally, the better we're going to be when it comes to telling the stories of the case voice control. What did you learn about working with your voice? Because one thing I do remember about you, I saw you speak one time at a TAA, is that you spoke a little too much too rapidly. Now you try to give me an excuse. You had so much content, but this is every excuse to no matter how much time they give, you always got to slow down. But tell us what you learned about voice control.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:40:13

Yeah, the speed is what you're talking about obviously was an issue for me trying to make sure that I slow down and give breaks because the brain needs time to process information, especially for the jurors. They don't know the story of the case. And so you need to give them time with pauses to process it and make sure that they can make it more of a memory in their mind. If you give too much information too quickly, then it's very hard to actually process that information. That's why taking breaths at certain times is important. Slowing down the speed which you deliver. And then also another thing that goes hand in hand with that is your use of your hands to make sure that you are connecting and drawing them in. So you want to make sure that you're using your hands a few inches below your chin so that you're helping to make that connection as you're speaking with your jurors and bringing them into that communication.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:41:14

Right. Well, the voice also though the pauses are really important to train ourselves to slow down pause, but also to breathe when we pause. Because I see from training so many people, they get tense and they don't breathe, forces them to speed up because they're trying to get all the words out before they run out of air. So that's really important. And also the pause allows people to process the information and give images or allusions to the words that we are using. So that way it's a picture, it's memorable to them now and they can recall it. That's why it's just so important. And as we get stressed and it's stressful standing up in front of people and presenting and performing, it tends to make everybody speed up. And the only way that you will slow down is if you train before you get there.

(: 00:42:00

If you train for the anxiety and the pressure of the event and that you're conscious and that you train all these things, you have to train all these skills so they become part of your unconscious so that way none of your bandwidth is being used up on these mechanics while you can't thinking about how to shape your hands to catch a ball that's coming at you, if you try to think about what your hands should look like, you have no chance of catching it, but you know how to catch it because you caught thousands of balls and your hands know what to do when the ball's coming in and to close around it if it's a football or whatever. So it's that time and it's that practice of all these skills working together. And then you brought up the use of the hands, and that one is key because so many people, the hands tell so much about a person.

(: 00:42:42

You can see from the training, especially when you videotape and you slow it down, you can see people's hands, diff is like karate choppers or they do these weird things or they just crunch up like fists or you see them grabbing onto their thigh when they put their hand down. It's the most fascinating thing to see it. But if people's hands are relaxed, it causes their whole body to relax. I heard somebody say one time for an actor, if they just relax their tongue, it causes their whole body relax. I would agree, but I can't see somebody's tongue. Whereas if I see their hands are relaxed, they're relaxed,

(: 00:43:16

The whole idea is connection and we cannot connect with another human being if we're tense. It's not possible. But with the people, the most relaxed person, you watch somebody like Nick Rowley or Brian Panish up there, totally different styles, but they're so relaxed. It's like they're in their living rooms, not that they're in a courtroom. And that's what we need to get to get to that level of comfort, relaxation. That's what the practice does and that's what practicing these skills over and over does. And it's amazing to think about because I've done this program now for roughly just three years. I started December of 2021, and obviously it's similar, but different than it used to be, but it's amazing. I could see myself getting better at presenting every program, just the little nuances of just these skills just practicing over and over. And people are like, how many times think, have you done these same scripts?

(: 00:44:11

I'm like thousands. I have no idea. But it's like I know that every time I do it, every rep, I'm getting better, every rep. It's like anything else. It's like the difference between Michael Jordan and everybody or Kobe Bryant. It's the reps, it's the training. It's the training. It's all about the training, the training, the training, the training. And it's like Giorgio said or brought up the point that the reason athletes are performing at a much higher level today is not that we're evolved or so much genetically stronger than we were 20 years ago. It's because the improvement of the training process of now training has become more professionalized endeavor. So that actual trainers who focus on now, they focus on, okay, this is the training process. Let's look at what works and gets the greatest results as quickly as possible and what's not working and cut all that shit out.

(: 00:44:59

Because the truth is, if you're training and you're putting time into focus as a human being, we need to see results. We need to see progress because it's hard. It takes discipline to train. It's like going on a diet, you know what I mean? People try to get in shape, they don't see anything for a month and they quit because they can't see anything. But if they stay for the two months, now they stay to see a whole new body shape, a whole new level of energy and fitness like, oh, this is great. Now they got momentum. But it's getting past those sticking points and getting and just keep pushing ourselves to practice, to practice. And speaking of that, what are you doing to continue to practice and train really specific? I know you've done a lot, but you read and you just, but to practice these skills and train these skills so that when trial time is ready, you are ready, you are comfortable. You're not thinking about how to move your hands or control your place, you're dialed in.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:45:46

It's interesting, like you were just talking about with sports, you're looking for that muscle memory, and that's really what we're trying to do here. When I was younger, I put in hours and hours of practice shooting threes, making sure I got my form so that I didn't have to think about it. So I was unconscious. And that's the same kind of thing here with the presentation skills is taking that time and making sure that you do it over and over so it becomes unconscious. Like you said, when you stand up in trial, you have those tools at your disposal without really having to use the bandwidth to make sure that you're doing those things. So I have like you called it a dojo set up in my office, which has the boards of the pictures, which is nice. You have somebody to look at and make eye contact with for the micro connections and things like that.

(: 00:46:37

And I have that set up so I can practice each morning when I get into the office, put in a half hour or an hour or work on certain segments and make sure I'm video recording it so I can go back and look at it. Because that really makes a huge difference. When you can see those things, it makes it more obvious to you the mistakes you're making so you can correct them the next time so that you hopefully make fewer and fewer mistakes. And I'm actually starting a practice group here in Phoenix, Arizona. For those that are interested, feel free to reach out to me. My cell phone number is four zero two three nine three six three three, and my email is R skiver@skiverbradley.com. Get ahold of me. We're going to start a group and work on all these skills together because the more people you have in your group working and seeing these things to help improve the others

Dan Ambrose (: 00:47:32

And the time to start training us now, because my friend Sheik Lubeck and Dave Sugg did a presentation at CLU Vegas on performance. And Sheik really talked about because he's like a high performance, it used to be at be. He was almost an Olympic boxer. I think he was a high level boxer. I don't think he quit. He didn't make it to Olympics, but trained a lot. And also now he's a competitive shooter and he talks about taking dry reps when he travels, he brings a fake gun with him so he can practice his muscle machine every day. Really. He's like, you've got to keep practicing. But he talks about the three spheres of performance and one is the conscious mind, and that's the intentional stuff that we're doing, which we write out our opening, we write out our questions, we write out our voir dire, we decide what visuals to use.

(: 00:48:20

We decide how to sequence the information. That's all the conscious mind. That's one sphere of performance. But the other sphere, of course, is the unconscious mind, and that's where our training comes in because when it's performance time, nobody has enough bandwidth to control the unconscious and the conscious simultaneously. So that's where all the training comes in. It's because performance is the unconscious mind skills are unconscious, they're part of who we are, they come from our training. And then of course the third aspect of it is the self-image, which is confidence. And that's so important. That's why when people say, oh, I'm just going to go try this shitty case to get reps, I'm like, be careful because you can only get beat down so many times before it's going to break your little spirit. And how many times it's different for every person, but we all know people that had one or 2, 3, 4 bad licks, and they don't go to that courtroom anymore because they're like, fuck it, it's too expensive.

(: 00:49:15

And it's too humiliating. It's humiliating to get defensed. I don't care what people say, it's public rejection, all your hard work, nobody listened to you. You're a big liar. The story you told is bullshit, right? That's what the jury's telling you. Bullshit. And it's humiliating. And so that's why it's important to not get stuck in shitty cases with shitty clients and be selective, right? Go put all that hard work in all those long hours in and a case that's really worthwhile that you're not just there because you want to stand up in front of a group. Because standing up in front of a group and getting slacked, it's not that beneficial. I don't care what people say, it's just not that beneficial. Anyways, TIU Huntington Beach is June 4th through seventh, 2025. We've bought the entire Passe hotel for the event. So that means everybody at the hotel for those five days is going to be with the trial lawyers.

(: 00:50:06

It's going to be great learning. We have four lecture tracks and eight workshop tracks and the workshops and small group training where you can work on your skills of cross-examination, depositions, opening statement, jury selection. But on top of the great learning, we got great networking because every morning we do a full breakfast for everybody outside Ocean Lawn. Every afternoon, a full lunch, and every evening we have theme parties with live music, lots of food and open bars where there's never a wait for a cocktail. And on top of it, all the four days before TLU Hunting Beach, we're going to be doing a dark arts program with Dave Clark. So TLU Beach, you don't want to miss it. It's going to be fantastic for the Dark Arts for a day to hang out with Clark. So tell us about your Clark experience.

Ryan Skiver (: 00:50:59

Yeah, he's a really interesting guy. He's amazing with the framing and addressing issues in voir dire that may come up in your case. I thought it was really interesting. I wish I would've had more time, and I'm looking forward to the next chance I get to spend time with them.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:51:16

Well, that'll be May 31st through June 3rd. We're going to do a four day, I think we might do one before that. I look at my schedule, but we're definitely doing those four days in June before Huntington Beach, what we did in Vegas before the TLU Vegas. And it was super fun. And for those students that did it, they had like an eight day trial college. So they got to learn the presentation skills and the framing with Clark and presentation skills for me and Giorgio, but then got to do the four days of the conference is kind of what we're going to do in Huntington Beach this year. We did that last year too. So it's pretty fun and you really get to learn a lot and you're like Huntington Beach for eight days. I mean you can't beat that. I don't think mean we're working and we're working on beating that, but it's pretty great. It's pretty great. So besides the stuff we talked about, tell us about, I know you did Roger dod tell us about that. I

Ryan Skiver (: 00:52:07

Did. We squeezed in Roger Dodd's cross examination with his son. They had a course in Hawaii, so I got my wife to do our babymoon in Hawaii while I was able to also sneak in the course and go to that during the day. She said she wasn't going to allow that anymore. I was spending too much time in the course, but it worked that one time and it was really useful. The techniques of looping and the one fact per question or really kind of dialing it in or focusing it in was helpful. I liked working with those guys a lot.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:52:49

Yeah, Roger's great. It says great. They come out and taught Before I almost did his workshop myself, it was scheduled for Montana Big Sky, but it was just in the days when Covid was ending and Roger was like, ah, COVID is too wild. I can't go out then. So I ended up canceling it, but it worked out great. That turned into the ski bootcamp that we do every year in Tahoe and this year it's February 1st through eighth. There's still one spot left for ski boot camp and ski boot camp. That's my favorite because we have these two houses rented out on Lake Tahoe, two groups because there's like, there's only about 10 students, but still everybody's got a pre, everybody's got to have their own room, you know what I mean? It can't be like the ranch. We're all going to share rooms for God's sake.

(: 00:53:36

Everybody's got to have their own room. But I'm super looking forward to the bootcamp there. But because with Roger's cross though, because I really love his book Cross-Examination Science, I think I've read it quite a few times, but what we teach in Cross I think is the cross-examination stuff of the defense medical expert. I really think that that was some of the best stuff because Craig Peters came up with that because he came out to my place where we can, because the skills I think are important, not just leading questions only in one new fact per question, but cross-examining in the present tense I think is critical because it forces you the questioner to visualize it, forces the witness to visualize it, but more importantly allows the jury to actually visualize what you're talking about and then looping, you talk about looping, but that's very important, but people won't loop naturally.

(: 00:54:23

You have to write in your loops and then effectively using a flip chart to anchor your bullet points and putting one topic per page and writing legibly is a skill, being conscientious of your emotional state while you're crossing this. So many people get so aggressive and cross when it's foundational. It looks weird when you just set the guy up using our hands to control the pace of the witness's answers. Training ourselves pacing wise when we're asking questions because a lot of people get all amped up on cross-examination and speak too rapidly and slur their words together and don't enunciate clearly is another skill, dropping all the filler words and so okay, that takes practice and skill dropping or even delaying the taglines, right? Correct isn't true, doctor, you're board certified. True. So even if the guy doesn't answer right there, having that little space, let your answer linger.

(: 00:55:23

I think it's just so effective. We trade it in context of the defense medical exam, which is the right way to do a medical evaluation versus the wrong way and the risk. I think it's a very effective cross for drawing a line in the sand too. I just shot it. I'm working with Panish because Pan has got a big trial coming up and so we're doing this 10 minute zoom every day where he's kind of going through what he's doing to prepare. So I said he's working on this big expert cross, so I shot him this outline. He's like, I'll work it in. I'm like, do that Brian. I'm like, send me the transcript that way because he's really great at cross like that guy. He's like, I'm going to destroy this witness. I'm like, I can't wait to read the transcript. So those are the skills I think are real important to develop and most people won't develop them unless you train them, but if you trade and practice just this one five minute script, you'll get I think so much better at cross because you did my little bit of cross you needed dot.

(: 00:56:19

So how would you just compare them or contrast them and stuff like that?

Ryan Skiver (: 00:56:24

I did actually, that's what I was going to comment on. I really liked your use of visuals. That was one of the things I was hoping for a little bit more with dod and maybe we were in Hawaii or something. It wasn't as much the presentation or application of that stuff as it was the listening and giving back to them what they gave you kind of thing and making sure that you're telling a coherent story that you want. But I loved yours because of the presentation skills that were built into it. Like you talked about with the glance control earlier, you do a great job of making sure that you have the jury looking where you want them at your butcher paper or whatever it might be, and even the use of your hands too to control the witness. I thought that was brilliant and I really liked the way you put that together in just that short sequence because you can use that knowledge of those skills in other parts of cross-examination.

(: 00:57:20

You just have to think about it. Now that you have that as kind of a base skill, it makes it easier. And some of the other skills from the presentation bootcamp that I really liked that you talked about were the use of space. I actually had been trying to find that I'd heard people use it or talk about it or present it, and it may have been you at one point, but I couldn't remember where I had seen it and I had been searching in all of my studying to try to find it. So when I realized it was you, I was extremely excited about that and you helped me a lot to understand that the movement with the verbs and things like that where you're keeping that illusion of a space going. So I was excited to have that as part of it in addition to your witness prep, which I know you hadn't done witness prep in a while, but you actually did a little bit for us and it was great to see that. And I want to learn more, honestly,

Dan Ambrose (: 00:58:14

I'm doing the Steve Robertas bootcamp started January 8th, but I'm going to do an extra half day at the beginning just on witness prep and direct. I mean there's so many skills to learn as a trial lawyer. You can't possibly a four day program, four day program. It's a great start, but it's just really to get familiar with the skills that you continue to practice them. It's like a golf lesson. You take that golf lesson, but then it's going to be good. You got to go out there every day and hit balls for an hour and try to replicate in your mind what it is you're supposed to be doing because for the skills that we're trying to teach in trial lawyering here, I read these three books that had a big impact on my philosophy and teaching and the first one was the Art of Learning by Josh.

(: 00:58:57

He was both movie searching for Bobby Fisher was written about him and he was also a world champion in martial arts. And so he said, I'm not a great athlete. I'm not brilliant, but I'm a great student. So it was all about how we learn as human beings. So that's where I really got the idea of videotaping because you said you can only get to the epiphany, that next level of insight that can only go one level higher than you're currently at, but by recording it, you're documenting it so you're kind of building and building upon the knowledge so that way you can have these flashes of brilliance or whatever you want to call it. And so that one had a big impact on me. And then this book Peak The Science of High Performance by Andres Erickson. That's all about purposeful practice and deliberate practice because anytime you try to learn something, you apply deliberate practice like golf have.

(: 00:59:46

First you got to learn the foundations, how to hold the club, how to stand, and then you got to get accurate mental representation of what a swing looks like. And then you got to practice it and then you got to have a coach and you got to get feedback and you got to actually go out there and try to hit balls on an actual from the driving range to the actual tee box on the course and constantly challenge yourself and push the challenge. And when you're learning to really focus because you can't try to learn these skills while you have something else going in the background. It takes extreme focus to learn these skills of being a trial lawyer. And then finally, the last one I've really listened a lot to and read repeatedly is the talent code. Because the great news everybody is, there's no such thing as talent.

(: 01:00:29

There are no naturals. Brian Panish, Nick Raleigh, Keith Nik, every one of 'em. They work their way to where they're at and then anybody wants to be great. It's the greatest time in the world to be a trial lawyer. Everything is here for you, all the skills, you can learn it. My bootcamp, you can learn with Roger Dodd or with Jesse Wilson or wherever it is you decide that person's teaching the stuff that you connect to and then the strategy and the theory. It's like you got people teaching best stuff ever. And like you said, so much is on tlu on demand. It is crazy. I mean four years of conferences over almost 400 webinars. Just so much to gather. But we didn't finish with you though, Ryan, on your journey of knowledge because I know you also did some work in psycho drama in the trial lawyers college. So tell us about, because I spent 12 years there myself, it was fun. I made lots of friends, but I cannot say I'm a big fan of their methodology or the people they choose to sue like me. But go on no hard feelings, of course.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:01:34

No, I'm always looking for all of the different options really. I want to have three to five different ways to do any one thing in case the judge shuts me down or I don't think something's going to apply to a certain case or a certain trial. So that's why I try to learn from as many people as I possibly can. Everybody knows something that I don't, so I kind of just follow that journey. And one of the things was Trialers College and doing just a weekend thing, but it was psycho drum, which I found to be really interesting. And we got into stuff like role playing and the main thing that I really took away though was the listening. There was some good listening exercises where you make sure that really listening to understand where the person is coming from. So I found that to be really helpful.

(: 01:02:25

But then also in the psychodrama doing kind of the role reversal and looking at it from the other side. And I think we all do that anyways when we're writing direct or cross-examination. You have to think about what are they thinking, what's their response going to be and how do I deal with it? So it was kind of a useful tactic that I enjoyed. I didn't go too much further. I think we did one cross-examination course also that was telling your story, discovering your story, something along those lines. But I never went to the actual three week thing at the ranch

Dan Ambrose (: 01:03:02

That was smart of you, buddy. You saved three weeks of your life unless you're going for vacation. Then you missed out on a three week vacation with some really great people. But what's Clark say? It's like discover the story. He goes, there's only one story, the betrayal story. That's it. There's no discovery of this story, just what's the betrayal story. And I do think psychodrama is useful for about two days and after that it used to drive me, honestly crazy. I went there for 12 years in a row and all the time the same people would come back and we'd be in the middle of skills and then somebody have some emotional breakdown. Now we can spend three and a half hours dealing with so-and-so's problems. I'm like, I don't want to be crass, but I feel like you don't give a shit about that guy's problems. I came here to get better. I'm not here to be everybody's therapist, but that was the place. That was it at the time. So it was what it was at the time. But you also have gone to, so I know you went to Trial by Human, did you trial by Human with Nick Riley? I did that. One of those classes. Nick's a great guide.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:04:00

Yeah, actually he wasn't at that one when I was there. I think I was only able to make it for a portion of it. I was flying out, but Jacob Norman was there. He was great, worked with him. They were in Phoenix and we were doing stuff with voir dire, which was really helpful. Obviously his brutal honesty stuff is fantastic and everybody should be using it. So I had used that as a segment of my voir dire before jury selection. So I wanted to go out there and get kind of the firsthand experience with it. So I did some work there too

Dan Ambrose (: 01:04:32

Funny because Nick was actually the reason how I got to California because we were roommates at the Trial Lawyers College. So you see something real positive came out of it because I'm sitting here in capital right now, I probably wouldn't be here, but for the trial Lawyers College and Nick Row getting me started on this path and then, oh, then Jacob Norman used to run when I used to teach another program called Trojan Horse Method, Jacob was actually the one that gave me the idea to start the Trojan Horse Method. I was complaining about the trial lawyers college and stuff that I disagreed with and we were in Wyoming and we were climbing up the mountain there in Wyoming, in Jackson Hole. And he's like, Dan, you're a big complainer. You're very critical. He's like, if you think you're so smart, you should start your own program and then see if anybody shows up for it. I'm like, I'll do it. If you insist I must do it, I'll do it. Plus they would never make me an instructor there for whatever reason. Apparently I have an abrasive personality. What could I say?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:05:25

I think you're just a different style of coach. That's true. I had a coach like you in high school basketball. He was the winningest coach in high school basketball in Ohio, like 400 wins or something. But he was more of the Bobby Knight mentality, and so some people learn that way and some people learn other ways. So I think it's nice to have both approaches because some people do like that hard love. I think you were talking about one of the other guys who was a wrestler before, and I think that's the way he was used to being coached was just kind of, you got to get this, you got to get this, that kind of thing. So that's what I would say about your coaching mentality is I've experienced it before, so it wasn't anything new for me at the bootcamp,

Dan Ambrose (: 01:06:07

Right? It's just here for one thing, get results. I'm not here to make people feel good about themselves, nothing to feel good. Some of the presentations I got to watch, there's nothing to feel good about. The other thing good to feel good about is you're not doing it in the courtroom. You're doing it right here in the dojo. We're going to fix this intervention's going to take place right now. We're going to get rid of some of these bad habits real fast because you cannot go on with the rest of your life with these kinds of weird idiosyncrasies, whatever you got to call them. Don't be yourself. Be something as calm, relaxed and confident. Not the shaky, you know what I mean? Insecure stuttering person that we are because dude, I know what it's like. Okay. It took me six months to stop stuttering in the courtroom when I was a young lawyer.

(: 01:06:47

I was terrified. We're all terrified. This is our natural state of fear. The only way around it is to train is to practice. It's like on TLU on demand. There's I think a great program with eth Becky and David Den, and David does some defense work too, but he really made these videos on his training series on foundations and objections, which is so critical, especially for every lawyer, but especially for the young lawyer. You're not going to get any benefit of the doubts as a young lawyer. So you better know your rules and your procedure the back of your hand and you're going to get smoked even if you're right. I mean if you speak at any stutter, insecurity comes out of your voice oof chances. If you get a good, really good young lawyer, go way down. Go way down.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:07:31

It's kind of like the bar exam on your feet. You got to remember all those evidence issues with a judge and a jury looking at you while you may have a defense counsel, it's 40 years of experience and you're like, oh shit, what did I say? What was the question? How do I respond to this? So having that laid out to be able to learn, I'm actually going to go check that out now. I think I know it pretty well after all my years, but it never hurts to learn more and kind of refresh that stuff and practice.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:07:58

Oh yeah, no, we're going to do I think two day bootcamp we're going to put together on just practicing foundation, practicing objections. This is my year to become the top trial lawyer. That's why I'm not doing a fall program. We're going to crush Huntington Beach. It's going to be amazing. I bet we're probably half seven or 800 there because last year we had 600 and it's like the best program. We buy out the whole hotel on the beach, the passe, first of all, every room has an ocean view and a balcony. Then on top of that, we got four lecture tracks, eight workshop tracks with the top trial lawyers. It's four days. Wednesday is just workshops. There'll probably be a couple pre-conference activities like we did in Vegas. I think my friend Ted Wacker's kind of putting together a golf outing and there might be some other things that are social, but there's definitely going to be like eight workshops on Wednesday, June 4th for people that want to come in a little bit early.

(: 01:08:48

And then as far as the rest it goes, it's got great food. We do a full breakfast for everybody every day, a full lunch for everybody every day. So that does really great for getting to know people in the networking. And it's like an indoor outdoor program. So much if it's outside on the ocean lawn with a nice beautiful view of the Pacific and the breeze, and it's the perfect time of year because overcast and so it's not sunny most of the time, so it's not hot. It's like mid sixties, low seventies every day. And what else is fantastic about, oh, we have theme parties every night with live music and I work on having karaoke every night because I am a participant and I like to karaoke. They'll be Why do you have karaoke every night? I'm like, I organize this and I love to karaoke.

(: 01:09:31

And it gets people up there and it's fun. And then after our theme parties every night from five 30 to eight 30, we have the lobby lounge where we have a DJ and we have an open bar and ping pong tables and foosball, and I think we're going to have air hacking and pool up this year too. And then on top of that though, during the parties, we got food trucks. So we have tons of unlimited food. It's like once you get there, you're pretty much taking care of the whole time. You have to if you don't want to. But then people organize nice dinners and stuff and take people out to dinner. And to me it's like the best because the whole idea is to make more money. That's the whole idea. But if we can make more money and have fun and we can make more money because we make more money by learning more, by getting great education, so we do better our cases, but also by networking, right? Because we all want referrals because who doesn't want a good case to work on? And if you set a referral out, hopefully you want to get paid because we are in business and the chances that go way up when you have a huge network. So that's why Huntington Beach is going to be fricking awesome. I can't wait.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:10:34

And the one thing I will say is get your rooms early at, because that place is awesome. And in 2023, I waited too long, so I actually had to stay at a hotel next door or down the street, so I had to walk over and back every night. I didn't make that mistake in 2024 and got a great room at Passe. So the sooner you can get the room the better. He releases the blocks early. I highly recommend locking one down.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:10:59

No, it's like registration is open and it's cooking and it's like my goal is to build the best programs and get the best trial lawyers coming, and we got lots of new folks coming and a lot of our old steadfast ones and we're putting the agenda together and it's coming along pretty great, coming along pretty great. But you also, I know you've been to linear trial college at least once.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:11:21

Yes. Twice actually

Dan Ambrose (: 01:11:22

See that twice. So tell us about what you got from that.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:11:26

It was really interesting. Obviously he's a great presenter because he is a preacher or pastor or something like that. So he practices,

Dan Ambrose (: 01:11:34

He gets practices a few hours a week and he actually prepares and does this multimedia. So that's a lot of good. I'm sure he's a coach. There's no way this guy doesn't have a coach because he's a very good presenter. He's the best presenter of trial lawyers that I'm aware of.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:11:45

He's fantastic. And like you were saying, the presentation that he has, the PowerPoints that he puts together, I think he worked with Cliff Atkinson with a bunch of that stuff, and I did a course with him about beyond bullet points I think or something like that for PowerPoint and taking away the demonstratives from linear. I used a trial before, actually a couple trials. I also really enjoyed the neuroscience stuff that he had in there and talking to different jurors, because obviously we have millennials and people in their eighties, whatever it might be, all the way through. So you've got conservatives, you've got liberals, you've got all along the spectrum. You need to be able to talk to everybody depending on where you're trying cases and who you have as a jury. So I thought that information was really useful, and he kind of got me more into demonstratives. I had watched an online webinar with him and the toys he pulled out and the way he explained things so simply with different tools or toys or whatever it was, I love that. So I've always been looking for those things too, to explain to a jury and make it memorable and easy to understand.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:12:55

Now, somebody that I have a lot of respect for that way to his programs said that they liked it, but thought it was a bit too theoretical because he's trying to appeal to the mass tort lawyer, the personal injury lawyer, the car wreck lawyer, the trucking lawyer, the civil rights lawyer, the employment lawyer, because it has to be so generalized to be a universal philosophy that doesn't really give concrete exemplars. What do you think about that?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:13:21

So I think because it is more universal, I think you can use it the different techniques and apply it to your cases. It's not very case specific though. You're talking about where you say, oh, that definitely applies to this case. But one of the things that he did that I loved was those roadmaps and using,

Dan Ambrose (: 01:13:40

Oh yeah, the roadmaps are great.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:13:41

Yeah, the I Pvo cameras using that during deposition and or at trial. So I actually tried making some of those roadmaps for this last trial, which was fun and makes it interesting as you're going through trial that I enjoy taking away. And then he had the skeleton with the red tape and the red tissue paper, things like that to really show the injuries. And one of our trials, the judge wouldn't let us use the medical provider as an expert because prior hadn't disclosed him properly, and once we got brought into the case, we had to do what we could. So we actually used that skeleton for what the doctor saw and felt on the plaintiff to help establish the injuries and do it through essentially a fact witness. So I love that. Was able to apply that shortly after going to Linear Trial Academy.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:14:33

Yeah, no, I go every year and I see them a little bit and all those different personality types. I'm like, wow, you got to be really smart to be able to talk to these people. I'm like, I can't remember anything about these people is going right past. This is right over my head. I'm like, I'm trying to remember the person's name. A couple things they've said, I can't worry about these personality types, but I guess if you're really smart, then some of this stuff you have to be really smart for the stuff to really be beneficial. That's why a lot of it just went past,

Ryan Skiver (: 01:14:58

I think going year after year too. It kind of adds on it. And if you've learned some of those things before or you take away things that you're like, I can use this. You may not be able to use all of it, but you say, and that's one of the things I always look for, is there at least one thing I can take away from whoever the speaker is that I can apply in the future?

Dan Ambrose (: 01:15:14

Yeah, no, I really love both that conference because people there really want to get better. They're really focused. I mean, they're barely ever out in the exhibit hall because they're all in there taking a class the whole time. Guys didn't take any breaks. I'm like, does this guy breathe? I mean ai, we throw a great party every year at, I think it's Vic and Stephanie's, Vic and Steph Steakhouse or something.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:15:34

Yeah,

Dan Ambrose (: 01:15:34

We do it on the last night. So we're good for the social part of it. Yes, the social part of it's pretty cool. So Ryan, what would you say and your career is your most proud thing professionally that you've accomplished where you're like, this is my, for me, it would be TLU. That's my thing right now. I'm most proud of this. I don't have a lot of pride, but I'm saying it's things I've accomplished. What would it be for you?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:15:56

I think the hard work paying off, and there's one specific example that kind of sticks out to me. It was a case where a guy ended up dying and he left behind three children. I took the case after another lawyer. I had turned it down saying that they didn't think there was any value there because of mistakes that my client had made and that his employer had made and the work comp issues associated with it. But I thought that I could do good work and hopefully get something for these kids. The defendants in that case refused. They often do big corporations to turn over evidence. And so me and local counsel that I was working with just kept after them and motion to compel after motion to compel. And finally the judge had had enough, which was nice. That doesn't always happen. And the judge ordered that they disclose everything.

(: 01:16:53

There was no more attorney-client privilege, no more work product for communications that were about the case earlier on. And so we actually got a communication between the lawyer and the adjuster who said the value of this case is at most a million dollars total, but because of the decedent's fault in the case and his employer's fault, the most were ever going to have to pay us $500,000. So I got to see how they set reserves and went ahead and took I think six depositions in that case, and by the end of it, I was able to get it up and settle a case for $9 million. So I could see directly the impact that my hard work in preparing for those depositions and staying after the defendants accomplished for that family. That really was nice because a lot of times you don't know how much money they really had or were planning on paying, but in this situation we were able to, and it's made all the difference in this family's life, which is fantastic. That's why we do this.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:18:01

That is a great thing. But you can really, as a criminal defense lawyer, sometimes I look back on the year, I think about the people at home with their families this Christmas instead of locked in a jail cell where they shouldn't have been to really give the hard work, meaning the hard work. Okay. How about the opposite end of the spectrum, like your most painful or stuck in the craw, like regret, loss, whatever, what it might be?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:18:28

I think the thing that has been the worst or stuck in my craw the most obviously is always losing. You feel bad for your clients. And those are the ones you always think about afterwards and they kind of stick in your mind and those are the drive for improving. So one of the first ones that sticks out to me is back in 2011, another attorney in our firm had this case and it was going to trial. They didn't want to try it, and I wanted to get into trial as much as I could. So I told 'em I would take it. It was like a week out from trial. The crash happened in a parking lot. The defendant was backing out of a space and hit the rear end of our client's vehicle who was waiting to pull into another space. There was no real visible property damage.

(: 01:19:16

Our client waited 10 days to go and get any treatment and preparing for trial. They had hired a DME and a biomechanical engineer. I was still learning all this stuff back in 2011, so I only had time to figure out how to handle one of those expert witnesses. And so I got Dorothy Clay SIM's book exposing deceptive defense doctors and went after that guy. Unfortunately, I wasn't prepared to deal with the biomechanical engineer and he was an old pro and ended up destroying me in that case. So we got defensed and I never wanted to let that happen again with a biomechanical engineer. So that was part of the studying and learning, and that would be one that's really drove me from the start. I would say another one that drives me is a mild traumatic brain injury. I came into the case late in that one as well.

(: 01:20:16

She was a teenage girl who got hit by a driver in this big raptor pickup truck and broke her arm. We ended up getting 75,000 I think for it, which is terrible for that. And obviously for a mild traumatic brain injury, we didn't present the case in the best way possible, and her social media pictures with smiles and everything else really hurt the case. So it helped me to kind of focus in learning how to present those cases where the client looks fine, but we know they have a lot of problems that they're dealing with on a day-to-day basis, and that drives the wanting to learn as much as I can to have three to five options on how to present something that will stick with somebody.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:21:07

It's amazing how losing can have that effect, isn't it? It fucking drives me crazy. Fucking hate it so much, so much. But you recently had a good win, though, was your best win? I think of 2.25 million with, is it Marjorie Hawk out of Vegas?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:21:25

No, actually. So the last one was 2.25 million in federal court here in Arizona this year. That was with James Tawney and Alex Acosta and my partner Kellen Bradley. But the year before that was, and that was a mild traumatic brain injury the year before. That was actually another seven figure verdict, 1.75 million with Marjorie Hoff out of Vegas h and p law. So yeah, 2023 and then 2024, I had two seven figure verdicts with mild traumatic brain

Dan Ambrose (: 01:21:57

Injury doing two webinars with Joe Free. One where he's hosting you on your case and one where you're hosting him on his Amazon case. So the one that you're doing with him that he's hosting, is that on the 1.75 million, right?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:22:11

Correct.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:22:11

Yeah, the one against,

Ryan Skiver (: 01:22:12

Okay. Yeah, swift from 2023.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:22:15

So Ryan, you got two webinars coming up I think on February 18th and 19th with Joe Free, who is a very close friend of mine who I know he is, had a big impact on your life and so many lives people, especially people striving to be great at trucking. But Joe actually gave me the idea to start Trojan Horse Method back in 2014. We were sitting outside at the win. We were at a 360 advocacy conference and he was like, Dan, if you want to get into civil work, you need to speak at civil trial conferences. I'm like, what do I speak about? He's like, what do you know that they don't know? I'm like, I've always been good with my witness prep stuff. So I showed him that stuff and then when he said that to me, he goes, that's like psychodrama in a chair, kind of saying, that's nonsense. You're plagiarizing people's stuff. So you got me all pissed off. Of course he always laughs about this. He goes, yeah, I was just trying to motivate you, Dan. Everybody's got a different coaching method. Some people you give 'em a little praise, some people tell 'em they're idiots and they just fire 'em up. I'm just a good coach. I know how to push your butt. That's our friend Joe Free. But he's hosting you on your webinar on the 18th. What's that trial about?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:23:23

Yeah, that's the trial that we had against Swift here in state court in Arizona. It was a rear end crash. We actually got brought in because the client had fired prior counsel brought us in after disclosure and discovery, so we didn't have the case built up the way we wanted it all, and Marjorie Hoff and I did that one and ended up with a 1.75 million verdict. The other one is his case with Amazon delivery van where the driver had a young boy who was crossing the road with his bicycle or kind of like a dirt bike type thing. So he's going to be talking about that one on the 19th. And yeah, Joe Free has been fantastic. He's been really helpful to me as well. He's actually the reason that I decided to get board certified in Truck accident law and went to the different a, some conferences that him and Erman put on and has been really helpful in learning all this stuff.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:24:30

And Joe and I are teaching a bootcamp March 5th through eighth in Vegas. So Joe's basically to help people frame their case, put their cases together as if he was co-counseling on the case with them, and then we're going to help myself and Georgia, who coaches with me going to help people become much better presenters learning the skills of presentation and connection and everybody brings a case. So everybody's working on their own trucking case. And then April 1st through fifth s Oliver and I are doing a similar type program, but this one's going to be more focused on his depositions, our trial approach and getting the evidence and building cases through that methodology. So we've got some great trucking stuff coming up in March and April in the bootcamp methodology to get people in small. I really just love the small groups and people working really intently with the great trial works.

(: 01:25:22

I'm doing one with Michael Hill on elder abuse, and that was going to be, I think it's May 7th through 10th. I don't know if you know Michael Hill or not, but he's just a G and he does elder abuse. That's all he does. I mean is elder abuse. He's just got some great results, which because everybody's going to get old. I mean Arizona, you got more old people than it's like people are getting old. It's like an epidemic of elderly people there. Arizona, I'm sure they got to have good loss, protective. You've got so many of 'em them there in Florida too, wherever you got a lot of old people, those old people tend to vote, so they like to protect those old people. They got a lot going on. They got a lot going on. So Brian, other than all of your studies and stuff I know, but TLU on demand, I know you watched this quite a bit. So tell us how you've utilized TLU on demand to help you keep your learning and getting better.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:26:17

So one of the things that I've kind of always done is set aside time for learning. Like you were saying before, everybody has the same amount of time and it's how you prioritize it. So if that means that I have to get into the office an hour earlier to make sure that I'm consistently learning, that's one of the things that I've done really since 2010 when I started doing the personal injury stuff. So even if it was reading a lawyer's blog every single day or doing what I can to learn, I've always tried to go that route. And that's one of the great things about the TLU on demand is you can go and find the lawyers that really ring true to you, that you can do the stuff that they're doing and it makes sense from your perspective. Now, not everybody is a great mentor for everybody else, but you can look online and look at the rallies and the Panes and Rex Paris and those and see what things they're doing that you might be able to implement into your practice.

(: 01:27:18

So even if you just take half hour, an hour, hour and a half each day to set aside and learn, TLU is the best place to go and find all that information so much that you can to learn from all of these people, and it's all right there to do on your own time. In addition to that, you have the podcasts, which are on TLU, but I really like that they're on Spotify. So basically when I get into my car, it automatically syncs up with wherever I left off on the Blast podcast and I can keep listening to the next one in line and just keep learning as I drive. So I really like that there's the opportunity to take it with you and be able to learn from all these greats and take away the knowledge that they've acquired over the years and are willing to share with people, which is huge. So I really have to thank you for that. Just like I would thank all of them for the information that they do share.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:28:20

I thank all of them too because I started the webinars at the beginning of the pandemic really I started because I was all by myself and my friend Brad Berg, he kind gave me the idea. He is like, Hey man, you got to find your way to serve the community. And I'm like, what do he suggest? He goes, I have no idea. He's like, I'm just telling you, you got to find some way because people will remember who was there for them in their time of darkness and from a business perspective, you could be there for their time of darkness. They'll remember you when the light's back on hopefully.

(: 01:28:50

And so that was really fortuitous because also I always consider myself student zero or student number one. When people thank me for this, I'm like, Hey man, I appreciate the gratitude. It's great to be able to help so many people, but it mostly came from a selfish standpoint. I wanted to learn this stuff. I'm the curious one. I'm the one that's trying to, I just start this civil stuff tub was 45 years old, and so nobody's mentoring Dan Ambrose at age 45. Dan Ambrose ain't get no job in no law firm. Carries being somebody's second or third or fourth chair, that's just not going to happen. So I had to figure out a way to biohack it to get all these people to teach me and to have something in it for them, which of course is obviously they get to teach a lot of people simultaneously.

(: 01:29:41

And the great thing about TLU on demand too is that it's an app for your phone, so you can literally watch it anytime anywhere. And we collect all the pleas, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all these cases. So those are all available too as starting points and guiding points and guidelines. And I'm working with an AI company and they're building this bot. So that way if you ask a question, it can point you out to the different programs and then you click on this program to kind of get a summary of that program as far as the question that you asked. So hopefully make it much more efficient to find the stuff that people are looking for too. It's been such a great learning tool. I'm just great. I don't get to see so many of this stuff. I was watching Satch Oliver. Our depositions are trial because when there's eight lecture tracks and it has all the last three and a half years of live conferences, they've all been recorded as you were saying, because there's eight lecture tracks like in Vegas last year this past, and then four in Huntington Beach.

(: 01:30:39

But then there's also these masterclasses in Huntington Beach two on different topics like Lloyd Bell and Medical malpractice. And d Robertas has done two masterclasses that were 12 hours each on employment de gall lippo, two masterclasses that were 12 hours each on civil rights. Joe and Sash did three full days basically on everything they know with trucking and depositions and speed trial and combining it all. So I got a lot of learning to do. I got to catch a lot of catching up to do myself, so I'm busy Skyr, oh, I forgot to mention too that since I've been Cabo here, we're going to close it out here in one second, but I got to show you my view here before because I was sitting inside. There's too much background noise over there. But now since we're almost done, this is what I've just, I've been skipping out on Skyr. Yeah, I'm jealous.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:31:30

That's awesome.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:31:30

Just because I don't know, it's hard to see. I dunno if you can see that or not. I see

(: 01:31:34

The pool and the ocean and stuff. So this is a Pueblo bonito Sunset Beach. So September 14th through 21st, and Sarah and I are going to do a bootcamp out here on combining, it's a seven day program like the ski program, but this is going to be a golf and pickle ball combined with trial skills training. And Ed's really, really focused his work and his teaching on really the use of visual evidence all through trial, not just in opening and closing, but in voir dire, in direct and in cross-examination and creating visuals for your cases. So this is, and we all know visual alert, so I'm super stoked about that one too because it'd be limited to 10 students and we're going to have a great time in Cabo for the week because I already get it. I arranged over here, here right now, and I have a timeshare in this resort, so they're going to give me some blocks of rooms that are all together like in the same building on the same floor. It's going to be great Sky. This gives you, I've given you nine months to arrange this with your wife and your child and your trial schedule so that you could be here in Cabo for time. I

Ryan Skiver (: 01:32:41

Did that. So I appreciate that. And actually you see that I did one of your breakout sessions in 2023 with Eddie Ley and Philip Miller. It was great on doing the visuals in depositions. So that was a great program. I highly recommend it.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:32:54

See, it's going to be interesting to see who else decides to show. I bet Philip will show up and be like, Hey man, I want to come learn about visuals in Cabo and maybe Joe free or s some of the guys from the at. We're all learning here, man, we're all students, let's go. So it's fun too. We work on cases and stuff too, so the whole tuition all becomes a case expense and a really legit one too, because you're going to get way better on that case in every case that because you're just not learning about your one case. But all the other folks that are there too, they're working on their cases and putting that evidence together and framing those cases too. So it's pretty cool. Skiver definitely pretty cool. So Ryan Skiver, you're in Arizona. People need to get ahold of Oh, a couple things before we go here. How do they get ahold of you?

Ryan Skiver (: 01:33:39

Sure. My cell phone number is (480) 239-3633 or you can send me an email. It's just my first initial and last name, so R skiver@skiverbradley.com and it's skyr an I obviously.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:33:56

And we can see on your shirt Sky.

Ryan Skiver (: 01:33:57

I know, that's why I tried to point to you, but my hand didn't get, some people think SKY, but I figured this would make it easier and I didn't point to it effectively. So

Dan Ambrose (: 01:34:05

We get it, we get it. No problem, no problem. Alright,

Ryan Skiver (: 01:34:07

So feel free to reach out. I'm happy to answer questions and help anybody in any way that I can.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:34:13

Alright. And if anybody wants TLU on demand that doesn't have it, I'll send you a 30 day access code, complimentary can check it out, see if it's something that's valuable for you or if you just want my cross-examination, we talked about the defense medical expert, shoot me an email and my email's dan@travelleruniversity.com and my cell's 2 4 8 8 0 8 3 1 3 0. So shoot me an email, shoot me a text if, shoot me a text, put your email on it and I'll do my best as I'll actually follow through and get it to you. But we got a lot of conflicts for the next four days while I'm still down here in Cabo, in Sunny Cabo. Alright Ryan, well it's great hanging out with you and great seeing you too. And I will having see you, I'm not sure, but sometime very soon. Yeah, definitely keep training too, buddy. You better be real. Much better next time I see you than the last time I saw you. That's all I want to say. Alright, take care.

Voice over (: 01:35:09

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