A Landmark $30.5 Million-Dollar Verdict Against the City of Seattle for a Wrongful Death

Voice over (: 00:00

The most dangerous place you can be as a trial lawyer is to think you've got it figured out.I'm still trying to get better. I still have the passion for it. I believe in it.Everyone can learn to do what I do. And yet there's a group here that continues to get extraordinary verdict. Trial Lawyers University is revolutionizing educating lawyers to be better trial lawyers. It's been Invaluable To me. Trial Lawyers University, where the Titans come to train. Produced and powered by LawPods.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 00:33

Welcome everybody to the very first guest co-hosted version of the Trial Lawyers University podcast. I have the privilege of being the very first co-host here at the TLU Beach House in Hermosa Beach, just steps away from the Pacific Ocean. And speaking of Ocean, we got the $30 million man, Evan Oshan. How you doing today, Evan?

Evan Oshan (: 00:56

I'm doing good. How are you?

Mohamad Ahmad (: 00:57

All right. On a serious note, before we start, I want to give my condolences to your family, the beloved Bluenjy, the Frenchie and your family, family dog passed recently. If you want to share with the audience a few words about Bluenjy.

Evan Oshan (: 01:15

Thank you. So Bluenjy was a very special dog. Everywhere he would go, he would touch people. In fact, I think he had something like a half a million followers on Facebook. I guess you could say Bluenjy got me my first high profile case.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 01:32

Tell us about that.

Evan Oshan (: 01:33

So it was around 2017 and there was a blast on national news. There was a dog that was put in an overhead bin of a United Airlines flight and the dog died. It was being covered by the Today Show, I think Good Morning America. I mean, it was national news. So my wife says, "Hey, you got to get on a plane. You got to go to New York right now." And I said, "Look, I'm not going to New York. I'm in the middle of vacation. No, you got to get on a plane, go to New York, you got to help this family." She was on a discussion group with other Frenchie owners. So I did what you're supposed to do. I listened to my wife. I just got on a plane and as I'm flying, I'm thinking, "What's going on here?" I really didn't know why I was on the plane.

(: 02:17

I just knew I had to go there and help this family out. So I get on the plane and it becomes apparent to me that there was a gross injustice the way this dog was treated. He was put in an overhead bin. The family was essentially bullied. Little girl was bullied to put the dog in the overhead bin and the dog died. Which is

Mohamad Ahmad (: 02:34

Ridiculous. It's ridiculous to put electronics in there sometimes, let alone a living being.

Evan Oshan (: 02:40

Yeah, no. I mean, this was a living, breathing family member. So as I got more into it, other attorneys that I knew, I told them what I was doing. They said, "There's no way. A dog is essentially a piece of luggage." I said, "No, that's a family member. They need help." So I went there and over the course of it was several weeks, might've been several months, I fought with United Airlines.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 03:03

Real source for this lead, speaking of the business of law, was Bluenjy

Evan Oshan (: 03:07

Your

Mohamad Ahmad (: 03:08

Dog.

Evan Oshan (: 03:08

It was Bluenjy because I was going there to fight for one of his own. And his

Mohamad Ahmad (: 03:13

Referral fee was paid in dog treats?

Evan Oshan (: 03:15

It was paid in love, dog treats and a pat on the head. He was a great dog.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 03:20

And you brought up a good point about a lot of lawyers and unfortunately in America, the dog is so beloved. It's part of our families and everything like that. But we have a disconnect between what are real lives and then the law because in many states dogs are treated like they're worthless almost. You just get the economic value and a dog is much more than that, obviously.

Evan Oshan (: 03:40

Right. In different states of different laws, I got to know this very well. I handled many dog cases. Actually, several of my cases, on particular was covered by Good Morning America. And I was able to shut down essentially a cargo facility at the airport in Detroit for a dog who also passed away on a flight. It became somewhat of a passion for me.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 04:06

Yeah, that's incredible because growing up from an Arab family, I wasn't exposed to dogs. And then later in life after college, my friends had dogs and there's nothing like the bond between a dog and his best friend. It's really a special bond. They're part of the family and sometimes even more than that, because you're so close to them and all the memories. It's really tragic that they only live usually around 15 years. And so there's always going to be that built-in sort of tragedy.

Evan Oshan (: 04:37

Yeah. Bluenjy was very special. He was actually born on my wife and I, our anniversary and the dog passed yesterday, which was my mom's birthday.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 04:47

Wow.

Evan Oshan (: 04:48

Happy birthday to your mom. Well, she passed.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 04:50

Oh, she passed?

Evan Oshan (: 04:50

Yeah. So it would've been her birthday. So this dog was very connected to me, to my family, and all his followers. He had, like I said, about a half a million followers that just loved him. During the pandemic, Bluenjy and I would do short videos. Oh, that's adorable. So we would have similar outfits and we'd eat. He used to eat with his paws, he'd eat pizza, popsicles, everything. They're still all over the internet. Just

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:16

Not chocolate, right for those

Evan Oshan (: 05:17

That- No, no, no.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:18

Don't ever give a duck chocolate. That's not nice.

Evan Oshan (: 05:20

Yeah, no, no, no chocolate. But it was something to pass the time during COVID and it made a lot of people happy.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:27

Oh, of course. There's nothing. Cat videos and dog videos are the ... And for me, orca. I love orcas.

Evan Oshan (: 05:33

I have this

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:33

Crazy obsession with killer whales. Whale killers, but yeah.

Evan Oshan (: 05:37

It was incredible. I mean, he was on the Ellen DeGeneres show. He was on ... Before

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:42

Diddy. That was a pre-Diddy.

Evan Oshan (: 05:44

Yeah, pre-Diddy. We just

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:45

Got to ...

Evan Oshan (: 05:46

We got

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:47

Disclaimers. We're lawyers, so we got to have legal disclaimers. And

Evan Oshan (: 05:50

He was famous. It was pretty amazing.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:53

That's awesome.

Evan Oshan (: 05:53

So I mean, that was just a personal note.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 05:57

Now transitioning, you talked about your mom and she plays ... I mean, both of your parents played a big role in the man that you are today, but your mom has a very special role in who you are in your career and your life. Tell me about your mom and about your upbringing.

Evan Oshan (: 06:14

So my mom was a woman of faith. She was a great lady. She was my backbone. She was the wind under my wings. I wasn't such a great student as a kid growing up. I was always the one that they would say, "Oh, you're so capable. You're just not applying yourself." I didn't read until I was in third grade and even then I wasn't such a great reader. Later, and I mean much later at the end of my college career, I discovered that I had dyslexia. I suffered from a severe reading disability my whole life. I would learn with tapes. I would sit with professors, I would talk to them and I would learn material that way.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 06:58

And this was before the age, I don't want to date you, but before the age of easy iPhones and AI transcriptions and all that stuff.

Evan Oshan (: 07:05

You had a

Mohamad Ahmad (: 07:06

Dictaphone.

Evan Oshan (: 07:07

Well, I had a tape recorder. Tape recorder. And the thing about my mom is my mom always hung in there with me. You see, when I was born, I had jaundice. I was very ill. I had four complete blood transfusions and it was really a miracle that I survived and she hung in there with me. She felt I had a much higher purpose than just not being able to read.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 07:30

So instead of babying you, she'd challenge you to reach your potential.

Evan Oshan (: 07:35

She would challenge me. She would encourage me. She actually brought me to my first trial and it was when I was about eight years old. And at that point I was hooked. I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to fight for justice.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 07:47

Wow. And you've already touched upon it. I don't think many lawyers in the country. I know one from Gerry Spence Method, which is another thing we have in common, Gerry Spence University. Inaugural class, GSM. So the inaugural class. And you've also went there class of 24?

Evan Oshan (: 08:05

25. 25, yes.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 08:07

Wow. Okay. He does animal rights stuff too and he faced uphill battles because he's filing lawsuits on behalf of pit bulls, which is a hard client, just like you have in human beings, hard clients. They're a hard client and he fights to prevent them from being put down. But other than that, I've never heard of a lawyer that is like an animal lawyer that literally kind of represents the animal. But you've also had another career. Tell me about that.

Evan Oshan (: 08:34

Yeah. So I wouldn't really call myself an animal lawyer. I was kind of a lawyer for justice. People have given me a nickname. They call me "the wolf" because I go after something and I don't give up. And so it's kind of like akin to me. The dogs and me kind of, we connect. As far as other types of law that I've done, I also was involved with deportation defense. Post September 11th, there were a lot of Arab men particularly. Guilty,

Mohamad Ahmad (: 09:10

Arab men right here.

Evan Oshan (: 09:11

Certain age that were forced to special register. There was almost like a witch hunt going on where people had to go in and register. And so I took it upon myself to advocate and represent individuals that were being wrongfully accused. There was one particular case I remember where there was an individual who was named Muhammad, but he did just- Not me. Not you, not you. Not you. Okay. He didn't just have one Muhammad name. He had maybe 10 or 20 different Muhammad aliases. And they brought in a special prosecutor to the court in Lancaster and they said that he was somebody we were taking to Guantanamo Bay. They had a whole team of people coming in. And so I was asking for bond to have him released. And

Mohamad Ahmad (: 09:59

That's basically, it's not an actual death sentence, but it's essentially you're going there to die.

Evan Oshan (: 10:04

It would've been bad. It did not look good with all the Muhammad Aliases. And he also had somewhat of a criminal background. I went in and it turned out he wasn't a terrorist, but he was definitely a criminal. So I pled- That's

Mohamad Ahmad (: 10:16

How my wife describes me. No, I'm kidding.

Evan Oshan (: 10:19

Yeah. Well, I pled with the judge and I said, Your Honor, just because he's a criminal, you can't send a Guantanamo Bay. Release him on bond. Let him move forward with this deportation hearing, but please don't send him to Guantanamo. The judge agreed to release him on bond and there he went.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 10:39

That's insane. Yeah, because post nine eleven I had to register. I have a special number that I use for flights. If I don't input it when I'm booking a ticket, it creates a hassle both domestically and internationally because a lot of people don't know this. I didn't know this. I got thrown off a flight one time in Delta Airlines. My friend worked for the Obama State Department, he told me that it's a private third party, private security company that kind of processes those. And if you don't have the special number that I had to go to the special registration process separate from global entry and TSA precheck, I also have that you get stuck. I've personally experienced that. I've gotten thrown off a plane. I'm a pretty thick skinned guy, but it is one of the most humility things that ever happened. The plane is delayed.

(: 11:23

They come on the plane and they say, "You got to come off the plane." Everybody looks at you like a terrorist or a Criminal,

(: 11:28

Which nobody wants to be seen as that. There's other stuff that I do that is bad, but not that stuff. Yeah, I've personally gone through that, not to the level of Guantanamo or anything like that, but I've had friends that have been on the no-fly list. It's a tragedy.

Evan Oshan (: 11:45

Sure. I also-

Mohamad Ahmad (: 11:48

How did you get into that? Well,

Evan Oshan (: 11:53

A friend of mine took me to a deportation defense hearing and he got this guy off and he reunited a family, an immigrant family. And so I was so taken in by it. His name is Edwin Aimufua. He's an attorney. He's actually from Nigeria and he took me to my first deportation hearing. And so from there, I wanted to fight for justice.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 12:23

Yeah. So Evan, you have had a wild career. Tell us about your first start in personal injury.

Evan Oshan (: 12:30

So I was in law school and my first year of law school at Hastings, my appendix ruptured and I got very sick. So I missed the majority of my first year of law school. My dad, who was a pretty hardworking guy, he was a barber. He said, "You got to go back. You got to take your exams." And I said, "Dad, I haven't been in school all year." He said, "No, no, go back, take your tests." So I went back and I failed. I failed civil procedure of all things.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:02

Oh, wow. Which is the most important thing for young lawyers, I think, to learn.

Evan Oshan (: 13:07

Which is very important, especially for a trial attorney. So I fail civil procedure and I'm called before a committee. The academic disqualification committee, I didn't know what that was. I just thought, "Hey, I'll go in. I'll tell them, look, I was sick my first year of law school."

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:22

Oh, my

Evan Oshan (: 13:22

Dad

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:23

Is a hard nosed depression era guy. Yeah,

Evan Oshan (: 13:25

He was a hard nosed depressionary guy. I said, "Hey, just let me back in. I didn't think it would be a problem. It was a problem." They said, "No, you're done." And that was it. So I was out of law school.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:36

They kicked you out of law school.

Evan Oshan (: 13:37

I was academically disqualified for on fail

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:41

And

Evan Oshan (: 13:42

That was it.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 13:42

After a ruptured appendix.

Evan Oshan (: 13:44

After a ruptured appendix, but I did go back and I took my test. The school and I didn't exactly get along real well because I got very politically involved. My first year, I was a very strong advocate of disability rights. I formed a group in law school. My mom had lost her vision. My dad was deaf most of his life due to losing his hearing in World War II.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 14:08

So they wanted to get rid of the headache that was Evan Ocean.

Evan Oshan (: 14:11

Yeah, I was definitely a headache. I had threatened him with a class action lawsuit. Context. So they were happy that I failed that class, I think. I mean, I don't know. It

Mohamad Ahmad (: 14:22

Gave them the excuse to bring the hammer down. We see in many of our cases.

Evan Oshan (: 14:26

And they did. They brought the hammer down, but the dean was very nice. He wrote me a letter and he said, "Look, he's a fine young man. He just failed this class and there's nothing ethically wrong with him, but he can't go back to this school."

Mohamad Ahmad (: 14:38

So since then you've been doing unauthorized practice of law?

Evan Oshan (: 14:40

Well, no. So my dad, I went back to my dad and my mom and my dad went to meet with the dean and the dean gave my mom a letter, which basically said, "Look, I'm ethically able to practice law. I was just failing the one class, went into all the detail." And I took that letter and I was like, "Now what do I do with the letter?" My dad said, "Well, go to the governor." So I did. I went to the governor and ultimately the governor intervened and I wrote somewhat of a brief, gave it to the governor's special attache. They gave it to the law school and I had my second chance. I came back to law school the next year.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 15:18

So your mom was instrumental and you not giving up about your capacity as a kid and then your dad literally saved your law career?

Evan Oshan (: 15:26

My dad did more than one way. He was always there for me to fall back on and he encouraged me.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 15:36

And I'm sure his work ethic, he was a barber in Detroit just across the river from Al Capone and Chicago,

Evan Oshan (: 15:43

The lake. Well, that was in the 40s, but then he moved to California and he kind of left that lifestyle behind me, became a barber in California. And so during that, there was a whole year I was fighting with the law school. So I had the governor's office on my side. I was fighting with law school to get back in. It was at that time I got a job working as a paralegal for a very prominent personal injury law firm, Grassini & Wrinkle. Larry Grassini and Roland Wrinkle are probably two of the finest personal injury attorneys in the history of this country.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 16:20

Are they still practicing?

Evan Oshan (: 16:21

They're not. They're not practicing, but they are very, very well respected. They're very well known and it was there that I experienced what a real top-notch quality personal injury attorney could do. So

Mohamad Ahmad (: 16:34

You fell into a great scenario.

Evan Oshan (: 16:37

I did.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 16:38

And it goes to show like, look, it doesn't matter what you're dealing with in the now, it's probably going to have a good impact down the road.

Evan Oshan (: 16:45

Yeah. And I did, but then that got put on hold. I went back to law school. I lost my job because I wasn't a paralegal anymore. Graduated from law school and then I struggled with taking the bar. Took me a little bit of time, but I passed it. And then actually I passed it the first time in Washington. One of the reasons I went to Washington is because there was no multiple choice tests there and I had difficulty with multiple choice tests.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 17:12

Wow. Yeah. Wow.

Evan Oshan (: 17:14

Passed on my first shot up there.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 17:15

Nice.

Voice over (: 17:17

August 24th through 28th, Sach Oliver has come all the way from Arkansas to right here to Hermosa Beach to TLU Beach House. We're going to be teaching a five-day depositions our trial bootcamp. You're going to be working on your cases. Sacha's going to be working with you on your cases. So not only are you going to transform your case, but at the end of the day, it becomes a case expense because your case is going to get that much better. This program's limited to 10 participants. So if you want to come get registered today, we'll see you right here.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 17:58

Speaking of Washington, Seattle, Washington, this is where your big $30 million verdict was. Tell us about that case, wild case.

Evan Oshan (: 18:09

So it was 2021. It was post George Floyd. If you remember during George Floyd, the streets had erupted.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 18:20

Yeah.

Evan Oshan (: 18:21

COVID was still going on. People were wearing masks. Things were out of control.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 18:24

I remember seeing tanks in Santa Monica and they literally imported police divisions from other cities.

Evan Oshan (: 18:30

It was something I've never

Mohamad Ahmad (: 18:31

Seen before.

Evan Oshan (: 18:33

It was completely out of control and race relations were at an all time high except for when I was a kid. I remember when I was bused, just regressing to the inner city and students were bused to my school. It was

Mohamad Ahmad (: 18:50

Like a two-way

Evan Oshan (: 18:50

Exchange. Right. And so there was integration.That was a very important part of my life growing up was during the forced busing era. That was when I first experienced what racial profiling was. I was a white kid primarily coming from a white area going to school with primarily African Americans. And these students from the inner city were welcome into my home. My parents welcomed them in and- That's

Mohamad Ahmad (: 19:17

Awesome.

Evan Oshan (: 19:19

We'd hang out together, but I saw what racial profiling was. And you

Mohamad Ahmad (: 19:22

Grew up Jewish and so Jews played a pivotal role in the civil rights movement. So that's kind of just natural sort of thing for your parents, always going for the underdog.

Evan Oshan (: 19:33

I think so. I think that was a big part of it, but ironically, that was probably a big part of why I was drawn to help the Muslims who were being what I thought was being discriminated against during the post nine eleven era. So sure that had lots to do.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 19:51

I mean, I had great parents growing up. It's the biggest blessing in the world, I think. And I can see that from your parents, the impact they had on you. It impacted who you are every day, not just your career, but it spills over, obviously.

Evan Oshan (: 20:06

Yeah. They taught me from a young age, you don't judge somebody by the basis of their skin or their religion or what they look like. It's

Mohamad Ahmad (: 20:13

Very lazy, but we like to be lazy. I mean, human instinct is to be lazy, rely on propaganda and whatnot.That's incredible that your parents did that, especially in a time when it wasn't popular to do. You grew up in LA around what year?

Evan Oshan (: 20:28

It was in the '70s when the busing was going on. And there were actually race riots in my junior high. I got maced a few times. I witnessed some horrible violence. I saw one of my friends have his ear sliced off with an umbrella point. Another friend has jaw broken right in front of me.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 20:46

I

Evan Oshan (: 20:47

Was oftentimes in fights.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 20:48

So that was the 70s and then we had the crazy Rodney King things in the 90s. You're one of the few people that's actually from LA. I live in LA. I've been here for over 20 years, but I grew up in the desert two hours away from here. So it's rare to meet an LA person.

Evan Oshan (: 21:03

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm from LA, but I'm also from Seattle now and also from New York because my practice has taken me to New York as well. So I've been blessed that people have trusted me with their case.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 21:20

With all kinds of different cases and all kinds of different places.

Evan Oshan (: 21:22

All kinds of different cases. And that experience I had with Grassini & Wrinkle instilled the fight for the personal injury underdog, brain injured, sexual discrimination, all different types of cases.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 21:37

Basically the most maligned kind of cases and especially before the Me Too movement, sexual assault cases were like anathema. And so the George Floyd post-George Floyd, so how does a post-George Floyd case end up in Seattle with a wrongful death?

Evan Oshan (: 21:56

George Floyd. The streets had erupted in violence, really true violence, racial violence. The Black Lives Matter movement takes off in Seattle. So a young man, Antonio Mays Jr., Idealistic young man, goes to Seattle because he wants to participate in the movement.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 22:18

And where's he from? Antonio Mays from here?

Evan Oshan (: 22:19

He's from Southern California.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 22:21

Okay.

Evan Oshan (: 22:21

So he comes up to Seattle to peacefully protest and I know this was the case. I spent a lot of time with his father. There was actually one video that had surfaced that you could probably still pull offline where he's actually peacefully protesting. He's speaking up

Mohamad Ahmad (: 22:39

And they had no credible allegations or anything like that, that he did anything other than that?

Evan Oshan (: 22:44

No, he didn't do anything

Mohamad Ahmad (: 22:47

Not even charged or perceived to be charged of a crime.

Evan Oshan (: 22:50

Well, no, no. But the city of Seattle, and I'm not saying the police, the city of Seattle attempted to-

Mohamad Ahmad (: 22:58

Make that innuendo. ...

Evan Oshan (: 22:59

Create a narrative, which was ultimately dismissed by the judge and directed verdict that he had been committing a felony and so because of committing the felony, he should be barred from any recovery. Now he meaning his estate, he wasn't here.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 23:16

Yeah. And he's passed Antonio Mays Jr. And the committing a felony was a technicality, right? Because they said just being in that area is an unlawful assembly or some technicality like that. No,

Evan Oshan (: 23:27

It was even a little more than that. There was somebody who had come forward that said that he was assaulted with brass knuckles, many, many things. There was a box of evidence that was brought out. Later on, it was clearly established that this wasn't connected to my client, but it was pretty intense.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 23:47

And they were just trying to throw anything out the wall to stick to kind of excuse themselves from their conduct.

Evan Oshan (: 23:52

I'm not going to accuse them of doing something that would be improper, but they weren't able to establish any of it. Or come

Mohamad Ahmad (: 24:01

Close.

Evan Oshan (: 24:01

Or even come close.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 24:02

I mean, directed verdict for those that don't know, it's basically the judge saying no jury, no reasonable jury on earth. It's like the judge can step in. The jury's only there to decide factual questions that are confusing or that can go both ways, so to speak, theoretically, even if the evidence is overwhelming, the judge is like, "No, this is nonsense." And he threw it out.

Evan Oshan (: 24:22

Right. And this case, when it was first filed, it was filed against the former mayor of Seattle, police chief, fire marshal, head of city council. It was a lot of individuals that were named, the city of Seattle that was removed at summary judgment and the only thing I was left with was the city of Seattle A big part of the case that we won was getting past governmental immunity, which was a big deal. And we were able to establish that the paramedics delayed the treatment of Antonio Mays Jr. The system failed him and essentially led to his damages, his death.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 25:06

So Antonio Mays, taking a step back, Antonio Mays is protesting, peacefully protesting. What happens to him?

Evan Oshan (: 25:12

So he's peacefully protesting and violence erupts in the chop zone. The Chop Zone was an area that was designated by the city as a peaceful protest zone, a protest zone, but it was not a safe zone. People believed it was safe because the mayor, for instance, went on to CNN and said it was the summer of love. It appeared to be a safe place for a lot of- They

Mohamad Ahmad (: 25:34

Advertised it as such.

Evan Oshan (: 25:35

Promoted as such, but the reality was it was a very dangerous place. Police were not let in. Fire department personnel were not allowed in. Wow. So when Antonio Mays Jr. Was shot and dying in the chop zone, the police couldn't get in, paramedics couldn't get in.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 25:54

And nobody knows who shot him.

Evan Oshan (: 25:56

To this day, we still don't know who shot him.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 25:58

Wow.

Evan Oshan (: 25:59

And so we didn't have a shooter.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 26:00

And so if they couldn't get in, I imagine their argument was, well, we couldn't get in, so he just died. We couldn't do anything about it, right?

Evan Oshan (: 26:07

Well, so the Good Samaritans, there was Good Samaritans, they put him in the car, called 911 and attempted to get him to the paramedics. And at one point the paramedics ran away from the vehicle that was pursuing him and there was a delay in his treatment and he died. It was pretty horrible.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 26:28

So they're coordinating with 911 in a sort of way and the ambulance ran away and that's what the jury found. The ambulance ran away and their election of their duty.

Evan Oshan (: 26:38

There was a delay. We shot eight times. I mean, we shot once in the head, once in the jaw. So it was a pretty severe shot. And so a big part of the case was causation. Would he have survived?

Mohamad Ahmad (: 26:53

Yeah. And so you get shot eight times once in the head, you're not 50 cents, so you don't survive and they're like, "Well, he would've died anyways." Even if we did everything right, he would've died anyways. So you're dealing with an impossible case against an impossible defendant with governmental immunities, which basically for those that don't know, protects them in a way that doesn't protect private citizens. God forbid, if I ever did something heinous like that, there'd be nothing to protect me from the law, money, justice or criminal justice, but cops and police, they can get away with it, not disparaging them, but they have immunities, a higher hurdle. And then you also had a tough venue or a tough judge?

Evan Oshan (: 27:36

Well, I have a lot of respect for the judge that handled the case. Initially I had some concerns because we were initially going after the mayor, the police chief, fire marshal, many individuals. Very

Mohamad Ahmad (: 27:51

Politically charged case.

Evan Oshan (: 27:52

Very politically charged. I believe that the judge was brave to allow the case to move forward. It cleaned up the case, it focused the case and in the end I feel the judge was making solid decisions, but it was difficult, very politically charged case.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 28:12

And it's interesting you say that because a lot of times as lawyers, especially ones that are in a charged case, this is a very emotional case. We kind of over allege or overinclude defendants and we get all worked up when the judge might rule one way or the other and in the end it helps us because it cleans up the case. They're maybe not trying to do us a favor, they're just trying to follow the law, but sometimes it actually works in our favor and kind of mysterious ways that we don't always understand in hindsight.

Evan Oshan (: 28:40

Yeah. I think the judge has a very tough job. I mean, it has to be fair on both sides. I think in the end the judge did us a favor, did everybody a favor. The plaintiff, the defense, cleaned up the case, focused the case, took it out of politics, took it into the courtroom where it needed to be. So there was another thing that happened in the case. We didn't have a shooter. There was a special instruction that came out that the recovery needed to be limited if you don't have the shooter. I asked for a hundred million, I got 30.5 million, it all worked out.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 29:18

Yeah. So that 69.5 is floating out there somewhere. So how did you break down that verdict because verdicts are broken down into like what Nick Riley likes to say checkbook damages, which is expenses, medical bills, funeral expenses, because it's a wrongful death, versus money damages, which is pain, suffering, emotional distress. All of the things that when we lose them in our own life, they're infinitely valuable, but we kind of as jurors, we might struggle to assign a value to them. So break down the verdict. How was it broken down between checkbook or pocketbook damages versus the real damages?

Evan Oshan (: 29:58

Sure. So I'll break it down simple Okay. I'll just round it up. So about six million was for the estate and for that you could probably attach economic damages, what Antonio Mays Jr. Would've earned through the course of his life.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 30:12

What's his payroll,

Evan Oshan (: 30:13

Salary, life earning. That was the hard numbers, right? 24 million was for non-economic damages, which is a reasonably large number with no medical bills supporting it, with no real bills, so to speak. It was just the truth of what my client suffered.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 30:35

And your client, who did you actually represent?

Evan Oshan (: 30:38

I represented the estate of Antonio Mays Jr. And I represented the father Antonio Mays Sr.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 30:44

And the state is kind of like the economic entity, right? Basically if Antonio Mays Jr. Lived out his whole life, how much money would he earn, what he had to pay out for the ambulance or whatever was done. And then the family is sort of the loss of that relationship and that human connection.

Evan Oshan (: 31:03

Well, the father. The father had his own individual claim. And I just asked for a round number. I just asked for a round number.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 31:10

What do you feel was the most important thing you did in working with the father to learn that this is worth, that this was a valuable life, valuable relationship?

Evan Oshan (: 31:24

I had to believe and I had to connect with the father. His fight needed to be my fight. I wasn't acting. I had to put myself in his position and that's hard to

Mohamad Ahmad (: 31:41

Do. And some call that the golden rule or whatnot, but it's a good rule to live by. Jurors can't consider it, but as lawyers, it's almost a must to consider, right? To as they say, reverse roles and put ourselves in the shoes of the client.

Evan Oshan (: 31:56

For me, it was essential. I don't know how I could have asked for that number without feeling it.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 32:03

And what's one story to honor Antonio Mays Jr. And the bond that he had with his father, what's one story that stood out to you?

Evan Oshan (: 32:12

Well, the father and the son had a barbecue business. They would prepare a barbecue and they had a barbecue sauce line. And I remember going to see the father at the barbecue stand. His son wasn't there and I could feel the emptiness. See, what bothers me most about this and about the city of Seattle is the failure to accept responsibility. If the city creates a system, they're responsible when it fails. It's offensive what went on here for the last month. You heard a lot of lies here. I think we know where they're coming from. I was able to take that and show that to the jury.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 33:07

You worked with your father growing up sometimes with the fruit stand or?

Evan Oshan (: 33:11

Well, I had my own fruit business. We had a lot of trees in my property. We had a small family orchard. So I would take the fruit off the trees and then I would sell it to different health food stores. So I had business as a kid.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 33:27

Yeah. Growing up, my dad to this day, he still has a store inside of indoor swapmeet, Coachella indoor swapmeet, right next to the music festival. But as a kid, you kind of begrudgingly go to work and whatnot, but you don't realize those moments are going to be the things you cherish the most. And for the father, it's even ... I can't imagine doing that with my son and losing my son.

Evan Oshan (: 33:48

It was a part of him that was lost and could never be replaced. It was intense.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 33:56

I saw a video of Charlie Munger, Warren Buffet's longtime business partner passed recently. And right after that, Warren Buffet was at a conference and he gave his update and he goes, "Charlie?" And Charlie wasn't there. So I can imagine probably the dad, Antonio Sr., Has probably had those moments where he says, "Oh, son, just ... " And he turns and Antonio Jr. Is not there because in a barbecue business it's like father, son, you're probably talking constantly. Every minute, you're probably exchanging food, exchanging everything and the banter, he probably has those moments where he turns and his son's not there anymore.

Evan Oshan (: 34:38

He does. And he'll set a sauce line that he puts together with his son. So an empty space in his life forever.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 34:48

Wow.

Voice over (: 34:51

TLU On Demand is the library for trial. You catch everything you missed over the last six years and we've collected all the pleadings, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all these cases and presentations from Las Vegas, New York, and from right here at the Pasaya. And it's an app for your phone and there's a Dan GPT feature on the desktop so you can search the entire database for exactly what you're looking for when you need it. If you're not a subscriber, you can call me on my cell phone or text me 248-808-3130 and I will send you a 30-day comp code so you can try it at no risk. And then finally you will see what you've been missing out on for all these years.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 35:35

You're going to be talking about this case and other cases at TLU Beach?

Voice over (: 35:40

Yes.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 35:40

TLU Beach is coming up June 3rd through 6th. On that note, I have one guest pass with your name on it. If you deserve it, you got to earn it. In order to earn it, you got to send me an email. If you're watching this before June 3rd, send me an email to ma@kermanillp.com. We'll put it up. Explain why you deserve this over the others that are going to be asking for it. I can only give it to one person so you get a guest pass as a guest, as a guest co-host. I would not be a good guest if I wasn't a good host, so I got to host one guest, one lucky listener, and you'll get to see Evan Oshan speak with Chris Hammons about what?

Evan Oshan (: 36:19

How to get massive verdicts with non-economic damages, seven and eight figure verdicts. I have another case coming up in New York.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 36:26

And Chris got a nine figure verdict.

Evan Oshan (: 36:28

I figured. So

Mohamad Ahmad (: 36:29

Seven, eight, nine.

Evan Oshan (: 36:30

Seven, eight, nine figure verdicts. I have a big case coming up in New York. It's involving a fire that took place in 2017 in Harlem. Involved the death of six individuals. It's been pretty heavily publicized and that case is in the works right now.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 36:49

And who's that case against?

Evan Oshan (: 36:50

You

Mohamad Ahmad (: 36:50

Probably stopped suing government entities after dealing with this.

Evan Oshan (: 36:53

No, no.This is against a New York City Housing Authority.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 36:56

Oh, wow. Okay. And they've been in the news recently because of Mayor Mamdani. Shout out to Mayor Mamdani.

Evan Oshan (: 37:01

Yeah. They're doing all kinds of bad things. They've been doing it for years and we'll be uncovering lots of that.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 37:09

From the past administrations.

Evan Oshan (: 37:11

Well, you know what? I don't look at past, president or future. I just look at injustice. So I really don't care about administrations. I care about the injustice and there's a tremendous amount of injustice that goes on in the tenements of New York. Tremendous amount of injustice.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 37:27

And so you don't care about the administrators, you care about the administration

Evan Oshan (: 37:31

And how

Mohamad Ahmad (: 37:31

It's administered.

Evan Oshan (: 37:32

Yeah. So I try to stay out of politics.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 37:34

That's the best

Evan Oshan (: 37:35

Policy. I focus on justice. I also don't really focus on the money. What I could tell you is this, I'm essentially sole practitioner. I don't have a big firm backing me up. I don't have a bunch of paralegals. I've had it before. It doesn't work for me.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 37:52

But you did have an Ivy League degree with straight A student growing up and never had any challenges in school, right? On a serious note, tell me about that because I know people that struggle in school struggle with either dyslexia or just the LSAT, all aspects of law. It's stress at every level. You've dealt with kind of all of it. You got kicked out of law school, struggled with the bar exam, struggle with reading. What's your message to the person out there that says like, "Hey, I struggled. I don't have big resources behind me. I'm a solo or small law firm." What's your message to those people?

Evan Oshan (: 38:35

My message is that you just have to be willing to fight and you have to be willing to take on a just cause. If it's a just cause, the money doesn't matter. The case doesn't matter. I've done a large number of Boy Scout sexual abuse cases over the years. These are people who have really not had their voice heard. I took them on because I care. That's what I do. I'm just as driven. I'm not money driven. The money's great, but that's not what drives me.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 39:12

Yeah. And I think when you kind of put that one first, obviously all we can get is money justice as Nick Rowley says. We can't eye for an eye. It's just money justice. But when you put justice first, the money comes in my experience. And Nick Rowley actually talked about that when he was up and coming as a lawyer. He said, "I'd try any case so long as there was a just cause." That was his prerequisite. It doesn't matter what the amount was or whatnot. That's why it was so appealing to people because they're like, "Oh, you'll take this case. Nobody wants this case." I'm sure many people probably turned down the Antonio Mays Jr. Case.

Evan Oshan (: 39:45

Yeah. And in fact, I would say everybody did pretty much.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 39:49

Their loss.

Evan Oshan (: 39:50

Well, people were scared, understandably so. I was threatened. My family was threatened.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 39:57

Wow.

Evan Oshan (: 39:57

My career was threatened. To this day, I still have threats. I really don't care.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 40:05

And people will be able to talk to you at TLU Beach. If somebody wants to reach out to you, contact you both before the conference or after the conference, how do they get in touch with you?

Evan Oshan (: 40:14

Sure. So you can reach out to me directly. You can contact me on my cell phone 206- 946-2706. You can text me at that number. You can also contact me through my website. I have a new website that's going to be launching. It's called TrialByWolf. So trialbywolf.com or Oshan and Associates. You can look me up, but I'm here. I'm more than willing to help and encourage anybody who's got a just cause. That's what we do.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 40:48

And if you're a dog watching out there, he pays dog bite referral fees or dog snacks.

Evan Oshan (: 40:53

Referral

Mohamad Ahmad (: 40:53

Fees to

Evan Oshan (: 40:54

Dog you. He does this. But I'll tell you what I will do is I'm going to match your offer out there. So I'm going to match your offer. If anybody who hasn't registered yet, I do have one VIP pass and I will give it out to whoever's out there that feels that they have a just cause and they have a reason to come to TLU. So tell me your just cause. Tell me why you feel you should come. I only have one, but I'm willing to give it out

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:21

If

Evan Oshan (: 41:21

You have that just cause.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:22

And it's a VIP. Mine is just a regular pass.

Evan Oshan (: 41:25

It's okay. We're not

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:25

Bougie over here in Santa Monica.

Evan Oshan (: 41:27

It's a VIP pass.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:29

All right. And then 206, is that Washington?

Evan Oshan (: 41:31

206 is Washington. I do also have a New York number. 646-421-4062. Feel free to contact me anytime, text me, call me, send me an email. I'm here to help.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:45

Evan, it was an honor, honestly, sincerely learning about your parents, learning about your dog, rest in peace, Frenchie and rest in peace to both your parents. Or is your dad?

Evan Oshan (: 41:55

They both pass. Yeah,

Mohamad Ahmad (: 41:56

Rest in peace of both of them and learning about your eclectic practice that's inspiring.

Evan Oshan (: 42:01

Yeah. I do want to say one thing. I want to thank my wife who's been very instrumental in my career, encouraging me. She backed me up in the Mays case. She's a lot- So she

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:11

Was out there in Seattle with

Evan Oshan (: 42:12

You? She was there. She was my paralegal. She was backing me up. She backs me up all the time. And

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:18

Her main role there probably was trying to keep all the women away.

Evan Oshan (: 42:21

No, no, no. She's very solid backup. She's very smart, very. So your nickname

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:31

Is not Evan "the ladies man" Oshan?

Evan Oshan (: 42:34

No, no. My nickname is Evan the Wolf.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:37

The Wolf.

Evan Oshan (: 42:38

The Wolf. Nice.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:38

The Wolf. Like Khamzat Chimaev, MMA. All right.

Evan Oshan (: 42:42

And the Wolf.

Mohamad Ahmad (: 42:42

All right. Thank you. Well, thank you, Evan.

Evan Oshan (: 42:44

All right.