82 Million Dollar Verdict Largest Amputation Verdict in History

Voice Over (: 00:00

The most dangerous place you can be as a trial lawyer is to think you've got it figured out. I'm still trying to get better. I still have the passion for it. I believe in it. Everyone can learn to do what I do. And yet there's a group here that continues to get extraordinary verdict. Trial Lawyers University is revolutionizing educating lawyers to be better trial lawyers. It's been invaluable to me. Trial Lawyers University, where the Titans come to train. Produced and powered by LawPods.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:33

All right. We got George Sidiropolis all the way from West Virginia. Could be one of the longest traveled guests all the way to Hermosa Beach just to be on the podcast. Well, hope it's worth it, George.

George Sidiropolis (: 00:47

It's great to be here, Dan. Thanks. All

Dan Ambrose (: 00:48

Right. It's a lot of fun here at Hermosa Beach.

George Sidiropolis (: 00:51

I've had a really nice couple of days.

Dan Ambrose (: 00:53

Not as much. Yeah, because you've been here for our witness prep and direct examination workshop slash ... We just call it a workshop, not a bootcamp because it's only two days.

George Sidiropolis (: 01:02

Yeah. To be fair to your listeners, I didn't exactly travel here from West Virginia. I was in Richmond, Virginia for a Fourth Circuit argument and then traveled to Hermosa Beach for your class.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:13

Okay. Well, thank God we don't want to deceive anybody. West Virginia, not West Virginia. All right. So what were your big takeaways from our witness prep and direct class, George?

George Sidiropolis (: 01:24

Yeah, so it was a humbling experience. It was a good experience too. I really enjoyed what you were able to teach us about modeling, witness, direct testimony, as well as creating space. I think some of the insights that you gave about how to bond with witnesses and improve our eye contact may have appeared kind of intuitive, but we're just brilliant and it was a good time.

Dan Ambrose (: 01:58

Well, good. I mean, I think witness prep is often overlooked and I think it's probably the most valuable skill, especially for young lawyers because if you can really ... First of all, you got to be able to get the client's story before you can tell it. If you don't get the client's story from them, you're just making shit up. And secondly, young lawyers working on those smaller cases, if the plaintiffs do great in those depositions on those $100,000 policies, they're going to get paid. And that's important because it justifies their salary from the firm that's hired them and it gives them a chance to meaningfully contribute to. That's another reason I think witness prep is the first real skill that young lawyers should learn, followed by cross-examination because they're going to be hopefully taking a lot of depos sooner than later. I heard about some of these firms, somebody's been there two years and they haven't got to do a depo yet, which I think is crazy, but you got to learn the skills.

(: 02:47

People are like, "Oh, I want these opportunities, but they don't have any skills." And it's like, nobody's just going to let you experiment on their good case, right?

George Sidiropolis (: 02:56

Yeah. So the vast majority of witness prep CLEs that I've been a part of look a lot like what David Ball and Don Keenan taught us all to do 10, 15 years ago. This was a completely new set of skills. It was really valuable. So I was grateful to have been part of it.

Dan Ambrose (: 03:16

Right. The skill of learning how to get a witness to transport, to go back in time and space and relive the event. And then when they do be able to help them transition that flowing narrative, them reliving it into an effective question enhancer format that is focused and in a practice of moving the story along instead of just kind of meandering and wasting time. And again, that goes like Joe Freed's philosophy on speed trial or what I used to call the minimum effective dose, which is how little can we give the jury so they get to the emotional core of the story. That's really what we're working on when we do the witness prep and direct because they got to get the story from the plaintiff, often the most important witness in a case. I mean, how many times they don't like your plaintiff. It's really hard for them to find for them and deliver a meaningful verdict.

(: 04:07

They don't inherently like it. I mean, it's possible. If you get a really bad defendant with a really big betrayal, it's possible. But the more they like your client to connect with them and bond with them and root for them, generally speaking, the better the verdict's going to be.

George Sidiropolis (: 04:22

True.

Dan Ambrose (: 04:23

I think we could all agree on that. So George, but in addition to this, your real expertise is insurance bad faith.

George Sidiropolis (: 04:31

Yeah. So our rules of professional conduct in West Virginia will not allow me to describe myself as an expert. At the same point in time, we have bad law in West Virginia that makes it so you can only have experts who are lawyers in West Virginia or licensed West Virginia insurance adjusters. That makes a little sense to me. But I certainly have concentrated my study in that practice area for the better part of two decades now and really enjoy those cases. You were talking about younger attorneys and people who don't necessarily have the opportunity to work on seven or eight figure cases. Insurance bad faith cases provide an opportunity for those attorneys to get seven or potentially eight or even nine figure results on cases that would otherwise be perceived as low limit cases.

Dan Ambrose (: 05:23

Well, but they have to be put together and built correctly, right? And set up correctly.

George Sidiropolis (: 05:27

100%.

Dan Ambrose (: 05:28

And set up correctly. And so tell us about how is it you became so, we won't say an expert because that would be improper, but we can say somewhat focused, specialized knowledge in the area of insurance bad faith.

George Sidiropolis (: 05:42

Yeah. So I got lucky at a real young age. It's an interesting story. I worked for an attorney before I went to law school who worked on a lot of insurance bad faith cases. We filed about 300 of them in one three month summer period so that we could preempt a change in the law. And then when I graduated from law school, I started to work for an attorney who really, he had all of the major cases on insurance bad faith in the state of West Virginia. And he had an expert witness who he couldn't get ahold of. I just started working for him and he asked me to track him down. So I looked him up on the internet and found out that he was being prosecuted for molesting children at the School for the Blind in Tennessee where his daughter went to school.

Dan Ambrose (: 06:41

I mean, that sounds an expert might have some baggage.

George Sidiropolis (: 06:45

I was terrified and speechless. And I was on the third floor of this office building. It was a Victorian building that doubled as a law firm and I run down the steps and I burst into his office and explained to him what was going on and all of a sudden it was my responsibility to find a new expert. I literally had just graduated from law school. I had absolutely no idea how to find an expert witness, but I knew about insurance bad faith cases and I knew about the case State Farm v. Campbell because of the punitive damages law and the verdict in that case, which was a nine figure verdict many decades ago. I looked to see who the expert was in that case. It was a non-attorney by the name of Gary Fye, who is the godfather of unfair claims settlement practices and insurance bad faith and the opinion of most of the people who do that kind of work and I cold called him.

Dan Ambrose (: 07:46

All right. How'd that go? He

George Sidiropolis (: 07:48

Asked me, how the hell did you get my number? And I was like, "Does nobody know how to use the internet?" So I basically explained to him that I admired what he had done with State Farm v. Campbell, gave him a less detailed version of the story about the expert that went south on us and asked him if he would work for my employer. I told him the guy that I worked for was a member of the American Board of Criminal Lawyers. You have to try three life or capital cases to acquittal in order to be eligible. And he said, "Well, I've never heard of him so he's not a big deal." And I kept him on the phone for another 10, 15 minutes and inevitably I was like, I asked Ruth Bader Ginsburg about her dissenting opinion in State Farm v. Campbell and he's like, "Well, now you're just lying to me.

(: 08:42

" And I told him, "No, she came to my law school." He goes, "So what did she say?" And I said exactly what was in her dissenting opinion. I was in law school. I don't even know how to ask a good question now. I certainly didn't know how to ask a good question then. And he told me to read a book by an author named Stempel called Litigation Road: The Story of State Farm v. Campbell and to get on a plane and that I could bring my boss if I wanted. And so I did and Gary adopted me and really changed my life. He introduced me to what was going on inside the best law firms in the country and behind the scenes at the major insurance companies, including State Farm. And it was like having the world opened up to me.

Dan Ambrose (: 09:40

Did your boss go with you to go see Gary?

George Sidiropolis (: 09:41

He did. And I remember my boss was yelling at me because I had worn blue jeans and a t-shirt and my boss would always roll around in a full suit and Gary did not like that. I think that was one of the reasons why he kind of took a liking to me is he kind of saw my dysfunctional, tumultuous relationship with my employer and- Kind of like

Dan Ambrose (: 10:07

What we have in going on, tracksuit, sport coat. We'll get you on the right page. It's been inverted now.

George Sidiropolis (: 10:15

I'm grateful to have somebody that dresses me that loves me now. I have a fiance that does a good job of putting me in clothes. I know I've met your significant other. I know she keeps you trendy as well.

Dan Ambrose (: 10:26

That's right. The trendy TLU tracksuit. A lot of people want these, many

George Sidiropolis (: 10:30

People- Myself included. Did I

Dan Ambrose (: 10:31

See that? George, we just might never know. Everybody wants a TLU tracksuit because we're having the TLU tracksuit dinner party on June 4th followed by the TLU tracksuit pool party all brought to us by Supio. So I'm just saying, it's not like a purposeless tracksuit. It's a very highly purpose tracksuit, but anyways, back to the insurance business.

George Sidiropolis (: 10:54

Can I make one quick aside as a compliment to TLU because although your viewers can't see these fine gentlemen, thanks to you, have been introduced to some of the best attorneys in the United States of America in two quick days, right? That's

Dan Ambrose (: 11:13

What it's about. We're the connector that said it's all about ... I have a few skills and fortunately for me and many of my friends, networking is one of them and bringing people together and spending some meaningful time and getting to know people makes the world just a little smaller place and makes it a little more fun to live in it, I think.

George Sidiropolis (: 11:32

Yeah, it's truly incredible.

Dan Ambrose (: 11:33

I think it's a lot more fun to live in it. This insurance, the bad faith, so Gary Fye.

George Sidiropolis (: 11:39

Yeah. So Gary was a manager at State Farm and he ends up blowing the whistle on State Farm, testifying against them in State Farm v. Campbell. That case is a nine figure 200 plus million dollar verdict and that was many decades ago. He is the intellect behind the billion dollar aftermarket crash parts verdict in Indiana, Illinois. I can't remember which state that- Close

Dan Ambrose (: 12:12

Enough.

George Sidiropolis (: 12:13

Yeah. You're familiar with that case?

Dan Ambrose (: 12:15

Not at all.

George Sidiropolis (: 12:16

So what's wild, State Farm allegedly purchased the seat on the Supreme Court of that state in order to defeat that judgment, which was overturned on appeal. The plaintiffs thereafter filed a separate action. Hale, I believe was the case, Avery Hale, I can't remember, where they hired some retired FBI agents to prove precisely that State Farm manipulated the verdict by defeating a Supreme Court justice. They then settle that case to the tune of 250 million. And these are the things that should be motion pictures. If the public was aware of what was going on, their animosity for insurance companies would look mild. And as I think we've seen from the public's response to things like Luigi Mangione, a lot of them got their pitchforks in hand and I can appreciate why.

Dan Ambrose (: 13:26

So at TLU Beach, because you recently were the architect of a trial team that went and got an $82 million verdict.

George Sidiropolis (: 13:37

Yeah. So it was really a great thing. Yeah, it was not an insurance bad faith case. It was a commercial trucking case. Now it was an excess verdict and it was settled for a confidential sum. Had it not been settled for a confidential sum, it would've been an assignment and an insurance bad faith case.

Dan Ambrose (: 13:56

But before we talk about

George Sidiropolis (: 13:57

That,

Dan Ambrose (: 13:58

First I want to talk about, because when you told me about this and I asked you, "Hey," because actually you came to TLU Vegas 2024,

George Sidiropolis (: 14:08

I

Dan Ambrose (: 14:08

Didn't know that time, but I asked you if you'd used TLU on demand and getting ready for anything or learn anything from me and you let me know you had no uncertain terms. So how have you utilized TLU on demand over the last several years?

George Sidiropolis (: 14:23

Yeah. So TLU's been life changing for me and God only knows how many lawyers who are just like me all across the United States of America. I shared with you that during the pandemic, a lot of my friends were losing hope and it was an opportunity for us to bond as a community of trial lawyers that I really never dreamed possible. I remember early being able to watch Brian Panish getting his cross-examinations critiqued by Roger Dodd. And I was like, "This is the most amazing thing I think I've ever seen as far as legal education goes." And it was just so humble. The participants, you're there too, providing feedback. We're all just trying to get better, trying to share what they knew with complete and total strangers at a time when we all needed a spark of hope. And so you gave that to us, Dan.

(: 15:41

I don't know that we do a good enough job of thanking you for that, but I am immortally and eternally grateful. Thank you.

Dan Ambrose (: 15:47

Well, I appreciate that. And I always appreciate everybody that got a lot out of it, but I always tell them the truth. And the truth is that all that was that I was student number one, that it was me trying to find out a way to stay relevant in the pandemic, but also to learn because I want to be a great civil lawyer, but I'm not really in a position to ask somebody to mentor me because I'm in my 50s and how am I going to get people to spend meaningful time and really concentrate on teaching me when I'm never going to work for them? I'm never going to be any benefit to them. But by putting this together and getting a community that they could mentor at a time when nobody could do anything, well, it worked out quite well for everybody involved.

George Sidiropolis (: 16:28

And for a guy who suggests that he just wanted to get better himself, you've made everybody such better lawyers. It's amazing. Yeah. So thank you so much for that.

Dan Ambrose (: 16:37

No, I appreciate that. But it was part of an after effect, but a lot to do with my buddy Brad Eggenberg who called me up at the beginning of the pandemic and he's like, "Ambrose, this is when real business is done." I'm like, "What are you talking about? " He's like, "You have to ask yourself, these are dark times, but these dark times are going to end." And people remember who was there for them in their time of darkness. And you got to ask yourself, "How can I serve my community?" And I'm like, "Great idea. What should I do? " And he's like, "I have no freaking idea." And so took a couple days to come up with the webinar idea because another buddy of mine, Ari Moss comes over and he's like, "We're watching CVN." Of course, I'm highly critical of what I'm watching on there.

(: 17:12

He's like, "You should do a postmortem play by play on some of these videos, on some of these verdicts, and maybe could even get the speakers to come on or the trial lawyers come on and comment on it too." I'm like, "Maybe who knows if they would. " And sure enough, they would. And that was kind of the beginning of the webinars that

(: 17:30

Built into TLU on demand. So it was a fortuitous circumstances of events. So many people were not fond of COVID-19 and understandably so, but I'm not one of those people.

George Sidiropolis (: 17:42

Yeah. I lost my mom during the pandemic. It was a tough time and everybody was experiencing horrific loss. TLU was life changing, so thank you.

Dan Ambrose (: 17:58

All right. And how was your first TLU live conference to get till 2024? You gave me four years to get all the cobwebs off so I wouldn't get it more refined.

George Sidiropolis (: 18:09

Yeah, so it was great. I mean, practical tools for results. I signed up for a workshop with Coneal Doyle.

Dan Ambrose (: 18:19

Amputations?

George Sidiropolis (: 18:20

Amputees? Exactly. My friend gave Aaron Deschaum, who was one of the attorneys I worked on our trucking case with, his ticket. We talked to Konel. He helped us pick the prosthetist who testified at trial for us. We replaced the prior prosthetist that we had before we took over the case. I mean, just practical solutions, the best experts, the best insights. And Konel obviously has a-

Dan Ambrose (: 18:53

Personal connection with amputees.

George Sidiropolis (: 18:54

Period.

Dan Ambrose (: 18:56

Because Connell only has one leg, so he's a born amputee.

George Sidiropolis (: 19:01

So he was able to sort of provide insights that only a trial lawyer who has that kind of physical situation that he's experienced could and that's powerful. And I could kind of go through, gosh, I mean, dozens of examples, but the workshops really are the best part of TLU in my opinion. I agree. Incredible.

Dan Ambrose (: 19:31

I agree. The chance to be in a small focus group with a group of people who are also focused on this one issue, maybe 10 people, five to 10 people and being with a trial lawyer who's extremely experienced in that field and willing to share those years of experience to help the individuals there with their individual cases or individual challenges and then creates like a little mastermind group of this people, of these folks that decide to get together. And that just can't be replaced to get the ... And from all parts of the country, openly sharing their ideas and collaborating, not just the lawyer who's leading, but also the students who aren't participating. And that's one of the things that I think I know separates TLU from everybody else, because nobody else does workshops, nobody. And for whatever reason, they have a million excuses why and these organizations, I'm always like, "I will help you put your workshops on.

(: 20:26

I will help you design them. You can have them. They're great for the community. They're great for your local state TLAs, but nobody takes me up on it because it's work. It's work to put it up. No shit. Everything's work. Losing's work though. Not being great is work. Being mediocre is actually work because you have to work a lot harder to make a living when you're just mediocre than if you're great.

(: 20:52

TLU On Demand is the library for trial. You catch everything you missed over the last six years and we've collected all the pleadings, transcripts, and PowerPoints for all these cases and presentations from Las Vegas, New York, and from right here at the Pasaya. And it's an app for your phone and there's a day in GPT feature on the desktop so you can search the entire database for exactly what you're looking for when you need it. If you're not a subscriber, you can call me on my cell phone or text me 248-808-3130 and I will send you a 30-day comp code so you can try it at no risk. And then finally you will see what you've been missing out on for all these years. Speaking of the work, you did the work. You got this case, this motorcycle double amputation case and you knew it was a significant case and so you put together what you like to look as your dream team for getting the results in this case.

(: 21:52

So tell us how that goes.

George Sidiropolis (: 21:53

Yeah. So I handpicked what I thought was the perfect team for that case, right? This is a difficult case just factually so you can get the background. We represented a motorcycle rider who was accused of driving drunk and making a left-hand turn across oncoming traffic and causing a crash at a light when he didn't have the right of way. So you can imagine when the state police finds against you, the state police's accident reconstructionist finds against you that many attorneys would say that case is unwinnable. After I departed my prior law firm, the client came with me and Aaron and Deshawn and I have been friends for 20 years. Aaron owns Trial Guides is knocked down a billion dollar class action against Computer Science Corporation and every major insurance company in the country for the Colossus software, but he also had one of maybe the largest amputation verdicts at the time.

(: 23:14

It was like 77 million. He just got it. I saw it come in and I was like, oh, I wonder if Aaron wants to try this case with me. Since you're

Dan Ambrose (: 23:21

Friends with him already and obviously has some idea what he's doing on these verdicts

George Sidiropolis (: 23:24

Cases. Yeah. So we've been friends for a couple decades and we worked on some medical bill review software class cases back in the day. But anyway, so I call Aaron, he said he was in, no questions asked and he's like, "Well, I'm not licensed in Ohio so you're going to have to prohawk me in. " And I was like, "Well, I'm not licensed in Ohio either, but I have an Ohio attorney I want to get involved in this case too. He's your friend, the Zen lawyer. I see his daily tips of the day on YouTube." So he reached out to Mike Leiserman and we were off to the races.

Dan Ambrose (: 24:05

All right. So tell us, how did it all go?

George Sidiropolis (: 24:09

Yeah, so it was obviously a complicated case. We had the better part of a half a dozen focus groups trying to ultimately get a verdict. The biggest impediment is obviously the alcohol. The focus groups indicate that the case is unwinnable even if most attorneys who've been involved in cases where there are allegations of alcohol understand that that's what focus groups say. And

Dan Ambrose (: 24:35

Being a motorcycle rider is not everybody's favorite thing

George Sidiropolis (: 24:38

Because some people

Dan Ambrose (: 24:38

Might think they're on a motorcycle. The most inherently dangerous vehicle there is. They must not care about their wellbeing.

George Sidiropolis (: 24:45

Without a helmet.

Dan Ambrose (: 24:46

Without a helmet.

George Sidiropolis (: 24:49

Also an issue. We were able through some really good pretrial motion practice and just an incredible and insightful judge, Michelle Miller, maybe my favorite judge in the United States of America able to keep the helmet out and keep the alcohol out. How would

Dan Ambrose (: 25:10

You manage to keep the alcohol out?

George Sidiropolis (: 25:12

No BAC. Now we had tracked down a witness who was going to testify that if we had to, we hired a final attorney that I'll get to here in a second, but Jeff Braziz, he smartly was able to track down the owner of the bar and find the actual bartender on duty who indicates that our guy had one drink. Nevertheless, there's no evidence of him actually being inebriated. You're allowed to drink and drive. You just can't drink and drive above the legal limit. Or be drunk. There's no BAC, right? We think we're in the clear.

Dan Ambrose (: 26:05

But you're not.

George Sidiropolis (: 26:06

Until the state police officer indicates that he actually watched a video of the crash from a pole cam and that our guy was driving erratically. We're two weeks out from trial when he makes this 11th hour revelation that he's told no one, including the crash reconstructionist. We were in a focus group at the time when this was told to us and I got to say the mood changed among the attorneys. We thought we were in the driver's seat and it presented a challenging situation, but we thereafter prevailed on that issue and kept him from testifying to that effect. Ultimately, the case was framed in such a way that we made him the hero of the case by him identifying the mark in the road that was ignored by the crash reconstructionist, that if it was paid attention to by the crash reconstructionist would have proven that our motorcycle rider was in his lane and that the truck crossed the center line.

(: 27:17

Sean Harrington was the crash reconstructionist. He did an incredible job at Forensic Rock. I would recommend him on any day to anyone really think a lot of him and the jury returned a verdict that was quite substantial. I think-

Dan Ambrose (: 27:35

$82 million. Is that what you mean by quite substantial?

George Sidiropolis (: 27:38

$82 million. All

Dan Ambrose (: 27:39

Right.

George Sidiropolis (: 27:41

I think that some of that was driven by the sheer horrificness of the injury. Our client suffered a traumatic brain injury, although we were willing to sacrifice talking about that so that we could keep the evidence of him not wearing a helmet out. Nevertheless, that stuff leaked in and I think it helped. Obviously the double amputation is one of the most extreme and debilitating injuries that anybody can suffer. I had really incredible clients. The husband and wife that we had a chance to represent were just beautiful people. They had their second child after the amputation injury. It's

Dan Ambrose (: 28:32

Impressive.

George Sidiropolis (: 28:35

Their marriage should be an inspiration for all of us. I mean, these are people who truly believe in the

Dan Ambrose (: 28:43

Death to us part thing.

George Sidiropolis (: 28:44

For better for worse. Yeah, it was just incredible. And our guy was a union pipe fitter, complained 0%. We talk obviously a lot about framing cases, not in terms of what our clients can't do, but in terms of what they're still able to do. And this is a guy who indicated that he would love to still be a pipe fitter and climb on ladders if his wife wouldn't rip him down to the ground if he tried. I mean, just tremendous people. Yeah, really living, breathing examples of the resiliency of the human spirit. I mean, just truly awesome people.

Dan Ambrose (: 29:36

August 24th through 28th, Satch Oliver has come all the way from Arkansas to right here to Hermosa Beach to TLU Beach House. We're going to be teaching a five-day depositions our trial bootcamp. You're going to be working on your cases. Satche's going to be working with you on your cases. So not only are you going to transform your case, but at the end of the day, it becomes a case expense because your case is going to get that Much better. This program's limited to 10 participants. So if you want to come get registered today, we'll see you right here. So you have this dream team. A lot of times we get all these superstars together. There's always a challenge because everybody wants to be the guy.

George Sidiropolis (: 30:26

Yeah.

Dan Ambrose (: 30:27

So how'd you guys as a group decide to divide the responsibilities in the case?

George Sidiropolis (: 30:33

Yeah. I mean, there wasn't a lot of ... We worked incredibly well together. I mean, John Bond ended up opening just because I said he did a better job at it than Mike Liesermann in one of the focus groups. Michael just kind of made this executive decision to give an associate in his firm this opening he'd never opened before ever. Is

Dan Ambrose (: 30:56

That Bond?

George Sidiropolis (: 30:57

Yeah. And it was not to be confused with John- Johnny Bond. Johnny Bond from Washington DC. But I will have John Bond from Columbus, Ohio at TLU. I'm looking forward to getting a photo with the two of them.

Dan Ambrose (: 31:08

With the two Bond brothers.

George Sidiropolis (: 31:09

Because they are both incredible trial lawyers. And John gave this super non-conventional opening that I have tongue-in-cheek described as more of an opening argument than an opening statement, but that's just the way that it focused. And I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the skill of John Camilles and putting together these focus groups. So

Dan Ambrose (: 31:34

John Camilles?

George Sidiropolis (: 31:35

John Camillis. Camillis, okay. Yeah, is out of Ohio and he is a superstar, rockstar trial lawyer in his own right. Within two or three weeks of our verdict, our guy who did the focus groups got his own $50 million verdict.

Dan Ambrose (: 31:54

Guy's multidimensional.

George Sidiropolis (: 31:56

Yeah. He is married to a Yale trained PhD psychologist who does witness coaching and she's incredible. She's done that for our firm. Or I shouldn't call it coaching witness prep, but she does just a great job working with people to harvest stories and I'm looking forward to trying to link together your methods with hers.

Dan Ambrose (: 32:25

I'm always fascinated other people that do the witness prep stuff because I used to do it professionally, travel around the country and prep people's witnesses before the pandemic. I only do it now if I'm involved in the case because honestly, it's just too emotionally draining and exhausting and I prefer not to torture myself with other people's trauma if I don't have to. But I think it's always just because it's such a unique skill. So somebody that's developed a methodology that has helped other people. Most of them I see I disagree with what they're doing, but I learn from it in my disagreements and I'm sure they disagree with what I do too. So we can all have our disagreements and you know what I mean? But the people that see it the way we see it, the people that are going to kind of follow our lead in these ways.

George Sidiropolis (: 33:16

Yeah. I've been doing this long enough for sure that I'm convinced that there's no one right way to do anything, right?

Dan Ambrose (: 33:25

Yes, I agree with that.

George Sidiropolis (: 33:26

And learning all of these different methods gives you a toolbox. TLU has just been such a great activity. Thank you again for it. Well,

Dan Ambrose (: 33:39

That's why I called it Trial Lawyers University. Initially when I started in the pandemic doing these webinars, I called it case analysis because we were breaking down verdicts. But then as I had all these different lawyers from different schools of thought and just different methodologies on how they did things from the Brian Panishes to the Nick Rowleys to the Sean Claggits to the Keith Mitnicks to all these different folks. And I was like, these people don't have the same philosophy. In fact, they're also very different, both personality and philosophy. And they're all very effective. And so that's what kind of trial lawyers university kind of was the thought was like, this is for people to come to share their best practices, how they do it and so that the people that are in their tribe that will connect with them, they can find them

George Sidiropolis (: 34:27

And

Dan Ambrose (: 34:27

They can learn from them and take whatever they get from them.

George Sidiropolis (: 34:30

So I met Kimball Jones, for example, Jones at Trial Lawyers University. He and I co-counsel cases now together, insurance bad faith cases, have become really close friends and I would've never been introduced to him but for you, but he was lecturing. I quickly realized that we employ the same expert witnesses and he had just gotten his $500 million verdict and now we're super close so I couldn't have done that without Trial Lawyers University.

Dan Ambrose (: 35:08

Like-minded people and you're going to be teaching a workshop with him today.

George Sidiropolis (: 35:11

Yeah, so that's exciting. Yeah. We will be able to talk about things that we wouldn't necessarily talk about publicly, but we will be able to share that in intimate groups and kind of talk about the strategies that we use to get documents and get results that oftentimes far exceed the potential verdict value of a case. I think it's something that people who don't do insurance bad faith cases don't understand or appreciate. And the handful of attorneys who do that at a high level have kept very quiet, which is that an insurance company will pay an enormous amount of money to make the discovery stop, to make sure that this story is never heard by a jury. And it puts the plaintiff's attorneys sometimes in a tough position because you desperately want to tell the public, but the reality is you have to do what's in the best interest of your client.

Dan Ambrose (: 36:17

That's the reality. Now what's in your best interest, not what's in the public's best

George Sidiropolis (: 36:20

Interest,

Dan Ambrose (: 36:20

But in what that one client's best

George Sidiropolis (: 36:21

Interest. And sometimes that's a gold plated problem because that's-

Dan Ambrose (: 36:25

Is there a lot of money coming at you?

George Sidiropolis (: 36:27

Right. Yeah.

Dan Ambrose (: 36:29

That's a parish problem, isn't it? It's throwing too much money at them.

George Sidiropolis (: 36:35

Yeah. But it creates some interesting stuff. And I think learning what goes on inside of insurance companies helps you understand how to work your cases better. It just does and it forces best practices. In the vast majority of states in the United States, I would argue in every state that simple contract principles force an insurance company to pay an excess verdict if there's been a reasonable opportunity to protect the insured that a insurance company ignores. If you're trying to set your case up like that so that there's objectively reasonable evidence that they should pay whatever that policy limit amount is, one million, 11 million, whatever your tower may be, many tens of millions if you get lucky.

(: 37:35

How do you do that? You got to support it through evidence, you got to support it through focus groups, but along the journey of those insurance bad faith cases, you're often able to uncover things like pay for performance schemes, management consulting firms that are giving advice to the insurance companies about how to reduce claim payment. And while we all appreciate that evidence of corporate misconduct drives big verdicts in our commercial trucking cases or our cases where we have corporate defendants, it's not as intuitive in these insurance bad faith cases that often have really bad facts, right? But on example of a rogue adjuster who did something bad, really bad is still forgivable. We're sorry, our adjuster made a mistake, but when that incident is but one example of a scheme to defraud the public that starts at the boardroom and works its way through the software that was the product of advice by McKinsey and Company or Accenture Corporation or Bain Capital or PricewaterhouseCooper to do X, Y, and Z and now you've got an InsureTech company who's also a defendant all of a sudden your case sounds like a major motion picture.

(: 39:08

And I think that is an opportunity for incredibly large verdicts for attorneys who aren't used to getting cases that involve double amputations, for example, because they don't need those giant cases to tell that giant story. Their case about their client is the story, but it's framed around this much larger story of institutional conduct.

Dan Ambrose (: 39:39

So you're also, besides teaching the workshop with Kimball, you're also going to be doing a lecture.

George Sidiropolis (: 39:46

Yeah, that'll be a lot of fun. And I'm going to try to talk a little bit about AI that insurance companies are using now. They're using AI software to adjust claims sometimes without an adjuster. It's really unhinged. They are using photo claim assessment software for automobile claims and for homeowner claims. They're using generative AI to set reserve amounts and this is insurance technology 2.0. We're all familiar with Colossus and Claims Outcome Advisor and ClaimIQ. Some of us are familiar with Liability Navigator and State Farm's got a third party evaluation tool. The next wave is coming and it's coming pretty quick.

Dan Ambrose (: 40:44

And the next wave, so you're looking at, besides these single party cases, you also look and do some class action stuff against these and she's-

George Sidiropolis (: 40:55

Yeah. So the question is really, can we obtain the documents as a plaintiff's bar to prevent this stuff from happening? Yeah, but Kimball and I are looking at opportunities for classes. We worked on a case together recently where we were able to quickly show that an insurance company was stealing somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 million to 1.2 billion from using a new kind of InsureTech software. The documents in that case, if I sat down with you to write the most outrageous and offensive exhibits that we were going to use against an insurance company, we would say that the documents that Kimball and I got in that case were too unrealistic and nobody will believe that they're even real. I mean, they talked about reducing average paid claims by 20%, just some really ugly stuff that insurance companies pretend like they stopped doing in the 1980s and 1990s.

(: 41:58

And that was one of the major carriers. That wasn't like do we cheat them and how of Idaho mutual group. It was a top US national carrier and those documents were from that carrier's venture capital group.

Dan Ambrose (: 42:20

Well, George, besides all the great learning, we're going to get from you and people at Kimball and Brian Panch and Nick Riley and Joe Free to Satch Follower and on and on and on with the greatest trial lawyers in the country. We're also going to be having a lot of fun there, George. You don't even know because it's at the beach. We at the beach now, so it's similar to this beach, except it's about 45 minutes down the coast, but bought the whole hotel. So everybody in the hotel is with us and then we have dinner parties. Before we even start the conference, we got a dinner party hosted by Finch on Tuesday night for it's there. And then we do a full breakfast for everybody. We have activities like golf and pickleball and surf camp with Ed Seramboli and it's five lecture tracks, eight workshop tracks.

(: 43:08

And so a lot of chances to do the small group training, learn the skills, the stuff that we worked on here, the witness prep and direct. You even done the cross examination, the performance skills, but we still have that and just different workshops with great trial lawyers and all the socializing. So you're about to experience, I'm pretty competent a conference that's going to blow Caesars Palace and TLU Vegas somewhat off the map just because you can't really compare Vegas to the beach. They're just not the same. I mean, some people can. They like to go to Vegas, but maybe for two or three days. So you get to be part of the ... It's pretty exciting, isn't it?

George Sidiropolis (: 43:43

I'm super excited.

Dan Ambrose (: 43:43

The greatest LaTrial Lawyers Event ever, George. I know it's a big deal. It's a very big deal.

George Sidiropolis (: 43:50

I'm really excited.

Dan Ambrose (: 43:51

Okay. That's what we need to hear. So George, people have insurance bad faith questions and they want to get ahold of you. How do they do this? Let's just say they don't live in West Virginia.

George Sidiropolis (: 44:02

Yeah. Happy to associate or simply advise or provide somebody to be ...

Dan Ambrose (: 44:10

The guidance like Gary Fi gave you

George Sidiropolis (: 44:13

Or just a sounding board to kick some ideas around. Call my cell phone 304-281-4070. If you're going to email me george@injuryrightsfirm.com I would also suggest copying my paralegal Maya, M-A-I-A @injuryrightsfirm.com or-

Dan Ambrose (: 44:40

It somehow could ... George might miss it.

George Sidiropolis (: 44:42

Forgive me. Maya won't. If it takes a while for me to respond to your email, but we're in the process of hiring so hopefully I will be less overwhelmed with- Right.

Dan Ambrose (: 44:53

So if there's any great young trial lawyers that'd like to move to the great state of West Virginia, George is looking for you or if you happen to live there, but as you told me, there's not a whole lot in West Virginia.

George Sidiropolis (: 45:07

It's a small bar. It's an intimate bar. There's a lot of great lawyers who are very happy with their current arrangements, but I am excited to try to grow and expand and people can work remotely if they want to come and work.

Dan Ambrose (: 45:23

That's a good

George Sidiropolis (: 45:24

Thing about

Dan Ambrose (: 45:24

The pandemic. You learned to work remotely. All righ. And if anybody wants to try out TLU on demand because they don't have it, which is shouldn't not have TLU on demand. But anyways, you can hit me up with a text or call me at 248-808-3130 or email me at dan@triallawyersuniversity.com and I'll get you a 30 day comp code and hopefully we'll see all at the beach and if for any reason you need any help getting there, just again, call me and explain your situation and I'm sure we'll figure it out. And then let's see. Lastly, if you know any law students who want to be plaintiff's lawyers or work in insurance bad faith, have them apply on our website, talubeach.com and there's a strong likelihood that they will get a scholarship. Very strong likelihood. I mean, they have to be a real ... It must have to be like a ... I don't know.

(: 46:13

It would be a rarity that somebody gets rejected around

George Sidiropolis (: 46:15

Here. What if they're president of the Student Defense Research Institute group?

Dan Ambrose (: 46:19

Yeah, that would be a reason

George Sidiropolis (: 46:20

That

Dan Ambrose (: 46:21

They would get nixed, but short of that, but usually those people will lie about it. So

George Sidiropolis (: 46:27

They

Dan Ambrose (: 46:27

Might slide it on their radar if they're thinking about going to work for the defense. They're going to learn to have to lie early and often. So I remember some law professor sent me an email one time she says, "I used to like your podcast, but then you're so derisive towards defense attorneys and I wanted to suggest it to my class, but if you'd like to talk to me about this, I'm open to discuss it. " I'm like, "No, I wouldn't like to discuss it with you and I will probably continue my derision and derisive comments towards defense lawyers."

George Sidiropolis (: 46:57

The reality is defense attorneys who appreciate that their duty is to the policyholder, not to the insurance company that pays their bill are honorable attorneys.

Dan Ambrose (: 47:07

Right, but that's a rarity. That's like saying a prosecutor who has appreciates their duty as to the constitution and not to just their win loss percentage. It's a different kind of prosecutor.

George Sidiropolis (: 47:16

We're going to occupy a quasi-judicial role as a prosecutor. So we know what the rules are and when the rules are followed.

Dan Ambrose (: 47:22

Everybody's great, but it's when they dot that they need us, right, George?

George Sidiropolis (: 47:26

Exactly. All

Dan Ambrose (: 47:27

Right. Well, George, we appreciate you coming all the way out to Hermosa Beach for our little workshop and our little podcast and hanging out here at our beach house because it's been a lot of fun for the last few days. And you made a few friends too as we saw.

George Sidiropolis (: 47:37

I made great friends. It's been a lot of work, but it's also been fun. A

Dan Ambrose (: 47:42

Lot of work.

George Sidiropolis (: 47:43

Yeah. Dan will put you to work if you think you're going to hide from your spouse for a few days and hang out. And relax.That is not what's going to happen, I promise.

Dan Ambrose (: 47:54

But you'd be happy that you came because your whole idea is to get better. So all right, George. I

George Sidiropolis (: 47:58

Am happy to hear. Thanks for coming and

Dan Ambrose (: 47:59

We're going to see you next at the beach.

George Sidiropolis (: 48:01

Thanks, brother.

Dan Ambrose (: 48:01

Great. Thanks.